《社交网络》于2010年上映时，帮助定义了一代科技创始人：这部由亚伦·索金编剧的电影讲述了Facebook的创立故事——一个雄心勃勃却遭女友甩掉的大学男生，将自己的意志强加于世界。如今，在《社交清算》中，索金聚焦于Facebook最终演变成的公司所带来的种种弊端。他通过前员工弗朗西丝·豪根的角度讲述这个故事。
The Social Network helped define a generation of tech founders when it premiered in 2010: Written by Aaron Sorkin, it tells the story of Facebook’s founding by an ambitious, jilted college kid who imposes his will on the world. Now, in The Social Reckoning, Sorkin focuses on the ills of the company Facebook eventually became. He tells the story through the lens of Frances Haugen, a former employee who demonstrated through a trove of internal documents, leaked to the Wall Street Journal, that Facebook’s algorithm was stoking political division, that Instagram was contributing to body-image issues for teen girls, and that the company’s platforms were being used by drug dealers and human traffickers.
豪根通过大量泄露给《华尔街日报》的内部文件证明，Facebook的算法正在加剧政治分裂，Instagram正在导致青少年女孩的身体形象问题，而该公司的平台还被毒品贩子和人口贩子所利用。首席执行官马克·扎克伯格否认其公司（在豪根泄密事件后更名为Meta）将利润置于安全之上。刚刚凭借《阿诺拉》获得奥斯卡奖的米基·马德森在片中饰演豪根。马德森与豪根接受了《时代》杂志的首次联合采访。
CEO Mark Zuckerberg has denied his company, rebranded as Meta after Haugen’s leak, prioritized profit over safety. Mikey Madison, fresh off her Oscar for Anora, plays Haugen in the film. Madison and Haugen sat with TIME for their first interview together.
米基，你和弗朗西丝并没有太多机会相处。影片中的弗朗西丝在多大程度上基于真实的她？
Mikey, you and Frances have not had the opportunity to spend a lot of time together. How much is the Frances of the film based on the real Frances?
马德森：当我拿到剧本时，我听说过“Facebook文件”，但并不知道弗朗西丝的名字。于是我去查了她，然后心想：“她是金发蓝眼，为什么亚伦会选我来演这个角色？”他回答说：“我想让你试着根据我的剧本来塑造这个角色。”但当然，我还是读了她的回忆录，并努力做好功课，因为有很多东西我并不理解。我完全没有任何社交媒体方面的个人经历。你不用社交媒体的原因是什么？
Madison: When I got the script, I knew about the Facebook Files, but I didn’t know Frances’ name. So I looked her up, and I was like, “She’s blonde and has blue eyes. Why does Aaron want me for this?”And he said, “I want you to try and build the character from my script.”But of course I read her memoir and tried to do my due diligence because there was so much I didn’t understand. I don’t have a personal relationship with social media at all. Is there a reason you don’t have social media?
马德森：这只是因为我从未真正习惯它。我一直觉得无法理解它。13岁时我开过一个Instagram账号，但那个账号当时就开了又关，并没有什么特别的原因，也不是出于自我保护。弗朗西丝，亚伦就剧本的事联系了你。
Madison: It’s just something that never quite stuck. It’s something I never felt I could understand. When I was 13, I had an Instagram, but it kind of lived and died at that time and not for any particular reason or self-preservation. Frances, Aaron reached out to you about the script.
哈根：我成为举报人几个月后，第一次见到了亚伦。他想弄清楚是否可以为《社交网络》拍一部配套作品。我的回忆录出版后，他带着这本画满重点、贴满便签、书页卷角的书又来找我了。
Haugen: I first met Aaron a few months after I came forward as a whistleblower, and he wanted to figure out if it was possible to do a companion piece to The Social Network. After my memoir came out, he came back to me with this heavily underlined, sticky-noted, dog-eared copy.
他写角色时以语速极快而闻名。米基，你是如何为索金式的节奏做准备的？
He writes notoriously fast-talking characters. Mikey, how did you prep for the Sorkin rhythm?
麦迪逊：我不知道有什么方法能真正让你为这种节奏做好准备。我本身就不是那种说话有节奏的人。除了亚伦，我几乎不认识其他人这样说话。这种节奏感完全是他作为编剧的独特风格。我总开玩笑说，亚伦脑子里有个内置的秒表。每个句号、每个逗号都经过精心设计，句与句之间的停顿也都有严格的时间控制，而且我们还得赶进度。拍摄第一天，拍了七八遍之后，他走过来说：“好了，现在我们开始有点起色了。”哈根：这确实很难。麦迪逊：但我也认为，这营造出了一种特定的紧张感。
Madison: I don’t know if much can prepare you for that. I’m not someone who naturally speaks in that rhythmic way. I don’t know anyone who does, except for maybe Aaron. It’s singular to his sensibilities as a screenwriter. I keep joking that Aaron has this internal stopwatch in his head. Every period, every comma is incredibly intentional, and the space between is timed, and we’re on a deadline. The first day on set, after seven or eight takes, he came in and was like, ‘OK, we’re starting to cook with a bit of gas here.’Haugen: That’s hard. Madison: But I also think it created a certain intensity.
哈根：这种节奏非常真实。《华尔街日报》记者杰夫·霍维茨和我都是话多、语速快的人，所以影片确实捕捉到了我们深入讨论时的兴奋感。
Haugen: There’s a fidelity to it. [Wall Street Journal reporter] Jeff [Horwitz] and I are both chatty people who talk quickly, so you do capture the excitement of when we were in the weeds.
Meta 在 8 月达成了一项 180 亿美元的和解协议，结束了多州提起的诉讼。该诉讼指控 Meta 让青少年沉迷社交媒体，同时损害了他们的心理健康。Meta 并未承认有任何不当行为。这笔和解金足够吗？
Meta reached an $18 billion settlement in August, ending a multi-state lawsuit that alleged it got teens hooked on social media while jeopardizing their mental health. Meta did not admit to any wrongdoing. Is the settlement enough?
哈根：我们现在才处于和解的第一阶段。仅在美国，我们还有两批重大的和解协议要完成。各学区正在提起规模巨大的诉讼，我预计这些诉讼的赔偿金额将超过 1000 亿美元，甚至可能达到 2000 亿美元。此外，还有来自个人儿童及其家庭的诉讼。到目前为止，我们只解决了一起，但赔偿金额就达到了 600 万美元。如果将这个标准推广到美国所有受影响的儿童，其实只需要这笔金额的千分之一左右，总额就会达到一万亿美元。你认为马克·扎克伯格做出哪些决定，才让公司陷入如今的境地？
Haugen: We’re only in the first chapter of the settlements. We still have two major sets of settlements to go just in the United States. The school districts are bringing very large suits, which I’m expecting to have dollar values north of $100 billion, maybe $200 billion. And then we have the individual kids and family lawsuits. So far, we’ve only had one resolve, but it was $6 million to a single person. When you apply that across kids in the United States, you only need a fraction of 1% [of that amount], and it adds up to a trillion dollars. Why do you think Mark Zuckerberg made the choices that put the company in this position?
豪根：马克所处的心理环境非常独特。在硅谷，几乎没有其他创始人能像他在公司发展到如此规模时那样拥有如此高的控制力……我认为他长期处于孤立状态，这已经扭曲了他的优先事项。
Haugen: Mark is in a unique psychological circumstance in that there are very few founders in Silicon Valley who have the level of control he has at the scale he has...I think he’s just been isolated for so long it’s distorted his priorities.
饰演马克的杰瑞米·强在片场采用了方法派表演，将自己与剧组其他演员隔离开来。这种体验如何？
Jeremy Strong, who plays Mark, went method on set and isolated himself from the rest of the cast. What was that like?
麦迪逊：我和他合作的时间不到半天。我们只有一场戏，而且我几乎只是背景演员。希望未来能有机会和他合作。作为一名女演员，他的表演过程让我非常着迷。最终呈现的效果显然也非常特别。
Madison: I had less than half a day to work with him. We had one scene, but I was almost a background actor. I hope to be able to work with him in the future. His process is intriguing to me as an actress. The result is obviously very special.
弗朗西丝，你曾作证称，在你看来，Meta将增长置于用户安全之上。你认为我们是否也正处于人工智能公司的类似转折点——即增长需求与我们自身的利益发生冲突？
Frances, you’ve testified that Meta, in your view, prioritized growth over consumer safety. Do you think we’re at a similar inflection point with AI companies, where the need to grow is at odds with what’s good for us?
豪根：我认为你可以将资本主义与对我们有益的事物调和起来。五年前，美国人使用Instagram和Facebook的频率比现在更高。部分原因在于Meta过度优化了短期利益，而非长期利益。当你看到令人不适的内容、人工智能生成的垃圾信息、霸凌行为以及更多的广告时，你使用该产品意愿会降低。治理有助于企业做出优化长期利益的选择，这实际上会使它们在长期内更具盈利能力。
Haugen: I think you can square the circle on capitalism and what is good for us. Five years ago, people in the United States used Instagram and Facebook more than they do today. And part of that is because Meta over-optimized for the short term instead of the long term. When you see unpleasant content, when you see AI slop and bullying and more ads, you’re less likely to use the product. Governance helps businesses make choices that optimize for the long term, which actually makes them more profitable long-term.
因此，资本主义不必与安全相冲突。就人工智能而言，使其难以管理的原因之一是变化的速度。我抱有希望，我们可能会再经历一两次令人担忧的事件，然后我们会说：“也许我们应该采取一些明智的措施。”五年前，当你为《时代》杂志 故事接受我的同事比利·佩里戈（Billy Perrigo）采访时，你谈到在加入Facebook之前你曾濒临死亡。
So capitalism doesn’t have to be in conflict with safety. When it comes to AI, part of what makes it hard is the rate of change. I’m hopeful we’re going to have one or two more scary incidents, and then we’re going to be like, “Maybe we should do something sensible.”When you spoke to my colleague Billy Perrigo for a TIME cover story five years ago, you talked about how you almost died before working at Facebook.
你告诉他：“我认为，当你几乎死去后，你的优先级真的会改变。一旦你克服了死亡的恐惧，一切皆有可能。”你能谈谈那段经历，以及你对电影中将这一经历作为角色动机予以省略的看法吗？
You told him, “I think it really changes your priorities when you’ve almost died. Once you’ve overcome your fear of death anything is possible.”Can you talk about that experience and how you feel about that being omitted from the movie as a motivation for the character?
豪根：我从前是一个每天能骑自行车骑行125英里的人，结果在两年半的时间里就坐上了轮椅。有一天，我的腿变成了蓝色，后来发现腿里有一个一英尺长、像雪茄那么粗的血栓，他们不得不多次进行手术。不幸的是，我在住院期间对血液稀释剂产生了过敏反应。在那段时期，我经历了最可怕的恐惧。我失去了工作，因为他们认为我在装病。
Haugen: I went from someone who could ride 125 miles a day on a bike to being in a wheelchair in two and a half years. One day my leg turned blue and it turned out that I had a foot-long clot the girth of a cigar in my leg, and they had to do surgery multiple times. Unfortunately while I was in the hospital I had an allergic reaction to the blood thinner. During that time, I went through my worst fears. I lost my job because they thought I was faking being sick.
我的丈夫离开了我。我失去了健康。但我最终挺了过来。因此，我觉得人生的那个阶段确实改变了我承担风险的能力。至于这部电影，亚伦·索金做了一件奇迹般的事：他让在电脑前打字这个行为在两个小时里都引人入胜。但人必须做出选择。我认为他选择聚焦于那些能让我们更深入理解不仅我的经历，还有Facebook和马克运作方式的内容。
My husband left me. I lost my health. And I came back from it. So I do feel that phase of my life changed my ability to take risks. In terms of the movie, Aaron Sorkin did a miraculous thing: He made typing at a computer compelling for two hours. But you have to make choices. I think he chose to focus on the things that would give us the most insight into not just my experience but how Facebook and Mark work.
你们有什么想互相问的吗？豪根：你觉得马克会看这部电影吗？麦迪逊：我觉得会。你对此有什么看法？
Anything you want to ask each other? Haugen: Do you think Mark is going to watch the movie? Madison: I do. How do you feel about that?
豪根：我希望他能看完这部电影，看到杰瑞米·强出色的表演，然后问自己：“我是否想过要过这样的生活？这是否是我想要的遗产？”因为有时候，直到艺术将其映照出来，你才会在镜中看清它。
Haugen: My hope is that he watches the movie and sees Jeremy Strong’s performance and asks himself, “Do I want to be living this life? Is this the legacy that I want?”Because sometimes you can’t see it in the mirror until art reflects it.