当我开始为一位不久前还在一家全国性大媒体工作的朋友做宣传时，她给了我一条建议：试着争取上福克斯新闻或者乔·罗根的播客。她说，虽然你不太可能改变那些观众的立场，但或许能引发争议，从而引起人们对这本书的关注。她还补充道，你觉得那些媒体难道不会乐于直接探讨特朗普与俄罗斯的关系这一话题吗？
When I began the publicity push for a friend who until recently worked for a major national news outlet offered me advice: Try to get on Fox News or Joe Rogan’s podcast. You’re not likely to change the mind of anyone in their audiences, she said, but you might gin up controversy that would draw attention to the book. And don’t you think, she added, they would welcome the chance to take the Trump–Russia story head-on?
她错了。出版社的公关人员联系了福克斯新闻和罗根的节目组。我也给一位与我关系不错的福克斯主持人发了邮件。此外我还给罗根发了邮件，又给同样拥有类似受众群体的播客主Theo Von发了邮件。但始终无人回应。
She was wrong. The publicist at the publishing house contacted Fox and Rogan’s show. I sent a note to a Fox host with whom I’ve had a cordial relationship. I also sent Rogan an email—and I did the same with Theo Von, a podcaster who draws an audience similar to Rogan’s. No one responded.
那个曾经公开指责特朗普是种族主义者、骗子且品行低劣的人，如今又重新回归阵营，与昔日的老板畅谈，还在纽约WABC-AM电台主持一档支持特朗普的广播节目。
The guy who turned on Trump and called him a racist, liar, and sleazebag is now back in the fold, chatting with his old boss and hosting a radio show that is part of a pro-Trump lineup on WABC-AM in New York City.
这并不令人意外。福克斯新闻并不热衷于高质量的辩论或深度探讨。它的商业策略就是向观众提供他们爱听的“猛料”，这其中就包括虚假信息、夸大其词的谎言、阴谋论以及其他无稽之谈。去审视——更别说挑战——那些观众深信不疑的观念，比如“特朗普与俄罗斯的丑闻不过是深层政府搞的阴谋（骗局！政治迫害！）”这类观点，完全不符合它的运作模式。
That was no surprise. Fox is not interested in good debates or deep dives. Its business strategy is to sling red meat to its viewers, and that includes disinformation, hyped-up falsehoods, conspiracy theories, and other nonsense. Examining—let alone challenging—the audience’s fervently held beliefs, such as the view that the Trump–Russia scandal is nothing but a Deep State scheme (hoax! witch hunt!), doesn’t fit into the model.
至于罗根，他此前曾邀请并接纳过卡什·帕特尔、图尔西·加巴德这类传播此类谬论的人做客，因此他也不太可能邀请一个能证明自己曾被蒙骗的嘉宾上节目。
我曾在一篇文章中提到，我找到的或许能接触到保守派受众的唯一途径就是迈克尔·科恩。这位曾经为特朗普效力、后来成为其激烈批评者、最近又重新与特朗普交好的前幕僚，欣然答应了我的邀请。
And Rogan, who has hosted and embraced purveyors of this hogwash, including Kash Patel and Tulsi Gabbard, was unlikely to book a guest who would show he had been duped ( as I once explained in an article The one path I found to perhaps reach a conservative audience was Michael Cohen. The onetime Trump fixer who became a fierce Trump critic and who recently returned to being a Trump chum was game.
科恩态度上的戏剧性转变引发了特朗普反对者们的强烈不满。这位曾经公开指责特朗普是种族主义者、骗子和卑劣之徒的人，如今又重新回归到特朗普阵营，不仅与昔日老板交谈，还在纽约WABC-AM电台主持一档支持特朗普的广播节目。我问他是否愿意就我的新书接受采访，他随即邀请我上他的播客节目。
Cohen’s dramatic 180 has generated much scorn among Trump detractors. The guy who turned on Trump and called him a racist, liar, and sleazebag is now back in the fold, chatting with his old boss and hosting a radio show that is part of a pro-Trump lineup on WABC-AM in New York City. I asked if he wanted to interview me about the book. He invited me on his podcast.
那是一次颇为怪异的经历。我不明白为何科恩会对特朗普的态度发生如此转变。有人将此视为他不过是个投机分子的证据。我猜测他或许是担心，由于科恩曾在涉及色情明星与封口费的案件中作证指控特朗普，而特朗普最终因此被判34项重罪，特朗普领导的司法部可能会对他展开调查。不过，作为一位迫切希望自己的新书获得关注的作者（详见此处），我刻意避开了这个话题，以便我们能集中讨论其他内容。
It was a bizarre experience. I don’t know why Cohen reversed himself on Trump. Some have cited this as evidence that he’s just a grifter. I wonder if he was afraid that Trump’s Justice Department, seeking revenge for Cohen’s testimony against Trump in the porn star/hush money case that ended with Trump being convicted on 34 felony counts, might investigate him. But as an author desperate for attention for his book ( see here ), I steered clear of that topic so we could focus on . During the podcast Cohen was in full defense-of-Trump mode.
在播客中，科恩完全站在为特朗普辩护的立场。他开篇便称特朗普能与普京交好是件好事。“特朗普的核心理念就是务实的现实主义，”他说道，“在G20峰会上你要与普京这样的人对话；在阿拉斯加举行会谈，就是为了保持沟通渠道畅通，从而避免第三次世界大战的爆发。我的意思是，如果保持沟通能防止直接军事冲突、为乌克兰问题的解决铺平道路，那为何要把这种做法视为‘绥靖政策’，而非理智且务实的外交手段呢？”
He opened by declaring it was good Trump was buddy-buddy with Putin. “Trump’s whole pitch is pragmatic realism,” he said. “You talk to people like Putin at the G20. You host meetings in Alaska, so you keep a dialogue open so that you don’t end up in World War III. I mean, if keeping lines of communication open prevents direct military conflict and paves the way for a deal with Ukraine, why paint that as appeasement, rather than basic hard-headed diplomacy?”
倘若特朗普与普京的密切互动真能推动俄罗斯暴君发动的乌克兰战争走向终结，这种观点倒也说得通。但事实并非如此。正如我在书中所指出的那样，十年来普京一直通过影响力渗透与虚假信息宣传等手段对美国发动“影子战争”，而这些行动恰恰对特朗普有利；而特朗普则通过否认此类情况的存在来协助普京。更糟糕的是，他实际上与俄罗斯人沆瀣一气。
That might be a decent take if Trump’s cozying up to Putin resulted in progress toward ending the war the Russian tyrant launched against Ukraine. But it hasn’t. And, as I noted, my book shows that Putin has for a decade been waging a shadow war against the United States with influence and disinformation operations that benefit Trump—and Trump has been aiding Putin by denying any of this has been occurring. Worse, he’s been in cahoots with the Russians.
我指出，2019年至2020年间，鲁迪·朱利安尼作为特朗普的私人律师，曾与一名俄罗斯情报人员勾结，试图抹黑乔·拜登。
I pointed out that when Rudy Giuliani was Trump’s personal attorney in 2019 and 2020, Giuliani colluded with a Russian intelligence agent to smear Joe Biden.
如今，科恩谨守党的路线，坚称特朗普与俄罗斯的丑闻纯属“骗局”；不过他也称我为“非常有声望的记者，学识渊博之人”。科恩接着说道：“您说得完全正确……在这个问题上我不会与您争辩。鲁迪·朱利安尼毕竟不是唐纳德·特朗普，这一点必须明确。”但我反驳道：朱利安尼当时正是特朗普的律师。“这并不等于特朗普就牵涉其中，”科恩回应道。
Now hewing to the party line, Cohen insisted the Trump–Russia scandal was a “hoax,” even as he referred to me as a “very prestigious journalist, somebody who knows a lot.”Cohen replied: “You’re 100 percent correct…I’m not going to argue with you about that. Rudy Giuliani is not Donald Trump. Let’s be clear.”But, I countered, Giuliani was Trump’s lawyer at that time. “That doesn’t mean Trump was involved,” Cohen replied.
那真是一种奇怪的为特朗普辩护的方式。我反驳道：“美国情报部门曾告知唐纳德·特朗普，鲁迪·朱利安尼是俄罗斯情报机构的目标，但特朗普什么也没做。他从未叫他停止……唐纳德·特朗普甚至最终在推特上发布了鲁迪·朱利安尼散布的一些关于拜登的俄罗斯虚假信息。他也是其中的一部分。”科恩回答说：“我不知道他（特朗普）是否参与其中。也许他只是想支持鲁迪。”
That was a strange defense of Trump. I shot back: “US intelligence told Donald Trump that Rudy Giuliani was a target of Russian intelligence and Donald Trump did nothing. He never told him to stop…Donald Trump even ended up tweeting some of the Russian disinformation [about Biden] that Rudy Giuliani was putting out there. He was part of this.”Cohen’s answer: “I don’t know if [Trump] was part of this. Maybe he was just trying to support Rudy.”
特朗普仅仅是想支持他的律师，而这位律师却在与外国情报机构合作以抹黑特朗普的政治对手？天哪，真是个“好人”。（请记住，特朗普和朱利安尼还曾共同向乌克兰总统弗拉基米尔·泽连斯基施压，要求其制造拜登的黑料。）现在，科恩坚持党派立场，坚称“通俄门”是一场“骗局”，尽管他同时称我为“一位非常有声望的记者，一个知道很多内情的人”。
Trump merely trying to support his lawyer who was collaborating with a foreign intelligence operation to tarnish Trump’s political rival? Gee, what a guy. (Remember, Trump and Giuliani also together pressured Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy to manufacture dirt on Biden.) Now hewing to the party line, Cohen insisted the Trump–Russia scandal was a “hoax,” even as he referred to me as a “very prestigious journalist, somebody who knows a lot.”
他坚持认为“据我所知，特朗普在2016年与俄罗斯没有任何关系”。但科恩知道，2016年6月，小唐纳德·特朗普、保罗·马纳福特和贾里德·库什纳曾与一名俄罗斯特使会面，该特使本应向他们提供关于希拉里·克林顿的负面信息，此前他们已被告知这名中间人是克里姆林宫帮助特朗普竞选的秘密行动的一部分。科恩也知道，在2016年竞选期间，特朗普一直在寻求一笔在莫斯科开发特朗普大厦的大生意。
He maintained Trump had “nothing to do with Russia in 2016, to the best of my knowledge.”But Cohen knows that in June 2016, Donald Trump Jr., Paul Manafort, and Jared Kushner met with a Russian emissary who was supposed to pass them derogatory information on Hillary Clinton after being told this go-between was part of a secret Kremlin effort to help Trump’s campaign. And Cohen knows that during the 2016 campaign, Trump was pursuing a big deal to develop a Trump Tower in Moscow.
科恩是这项工作的负责人，据2020年参议院情报委员会的一份两党报告显示，该项目涉及与可能与俄罗斯情报机构有联系的俄罗斯商人进行谈判。
Cohen was the point man for this endeavor, which involved negotiations with Russian businessmen with possible ties to Russian intelligence (according to a bipartisan 2020 Senate Intelligence Committee report).
当我提到在过去一年半的时间里，特朗普政府关闭了联邦调查局、国务院以及情报机构中负责追踪和挫败针对美国（以及其他外国政府发起的虚假信息行动）的俄罗斯虚假信息部门时，科恩反驳说，保守派“看待这些同样的情报机构……他们看到的是臃肿且充满党派色彩的机构，这些机构耗费了多年时间追逐谣言……这么说是否合理：将这些部门精简规模，正是良好的治理和‘排干沼泽’之举，而不是对莫斯科敞开大门？”呃，并不合理。特朗普似乎正刻意对俄罗斯干预当前选举敞开大门。
When I mentioned that over the past year and a half, the Trump administration has shuttered units within the FBI, State Department, and intelligence community that track and try to thwart Russian disinformation aimed at the United States (as well as disinformation operations mounted by other foreign governments), Cohen countered that conservatives “look at these same intelligence agencies…and they see bloated, partisan operations that spent years, years chasing rumors…Isn’t it fair to say that cutting those units down to size is just good governance and draining the swamp than leaving our doors unlocked to Moscow?”Uh, no. Trump seems to be purposefully leaving the door wide open for Russian interference in the current elections.
他的立场是，特朗普允许普京攻击美国选举并无不妥。这似乎并不符合“美国优先”的精神。
His position was that it’s fine for Trump to let Putin attack a US election. That’s not very America First-ish.
我描述了普京在2020年和2024年大选中针对美国所发动的虚假信息和影响行动。科恩则声称，没有证据表明特朗普本人参与其中。我回应道：“他否认俄罗斯有任何行动，尽管在他第一个任期内，他自己的情报机构和财政部就已经识别出针对2020年选举、旨在损害乔·拜登的俄罗斯行动。”科恩说：“这一点说得有道理。”难道他现在同意我的观点了？
I described the disinformation and influence operations Putin directed at the United States in the 2020 and 2024 elections. Cohen contended that there’s no evidence Trump was personally involved. “He denies Russia has done anything,” I responded, “even though his own intelligence community and Treasury Department in his first term identified Russian operations aimed at the 2020 election to hurt Joe Biden.”“Fair point,” Cohen said. Now he was agreeing with me?
当我再次批评特朗普拆除反虚假信息办公室时，他说：“这是一种看法。另一种看法（特朗普的立场）是：‘他们在帮我，所以我个人根本不在乎。让他们想做什么就做什么。如果有人想帮我，我不会干涉。’”他的立场是，特朗普允许普京攻击美国选举并无不妥。这似乎并不符合“美国优先”的精神。
After I again criticized Trump for dismantling the anti-disinformation offices, he said: “That’s one way to look at it. Another [for Trump] is that ‘They were helping me, so I don’t personally give a shit. Let them do whatever they want. I’m not going to interfere if someone wants to help me.’”His position was that it’s fine for Trump to let Putin attack a US election. That’s not very America First-ish.
随后，科恩对近期有关莫斯科干预美国中期选举的报道嗤之以鼻，称这不过是“每届选举都会出现的老套政治套路”。我则解释道，这类报道每逢选举季都会出现，“因为这种事情屡次发生。而唐纳德·特朗普拒不承认这一点，恰恰是因为这类事件常常对他有利……他一直都在否认，这才导致类似事件不断发生。”
Then Cohen derided the recent news reports that Moscow is meddling in the midterms, noting it’s “just the same political playbook” every election. I explained these reports come up each campaign season “because it keeps happening again and again. And Donald Trump refuses to recognize this because it’s happening often to his benefit…He’s been denying it all this time, which is why it keeps happening.”
我们就特朗普在乌克兰问题上的所作所为展开了讨论。科恩坚称自己的前雇主对普京并非心软纵容。他质问为何选民们要在意特朗普与俄罗斯之间的种种纠葛。我则认为，外国势力试图破坏美国选举，这显然属于重大的国家安全隐患。而他的这番话着实让我愣住了：“你书中所阐述的前提是正确的。我不会去反驳书中的这一前提。不过，我是否认为特朗普在帮助普京得逞呢？其实也不比奥巴马把90亿美元现金装在飞机上送给伊朗人、从而帮了伊朗的忙这种情况更明显。”
nt back and forth on Trump’s actions regarding Ukraine, with Cohen maintaining that his former employer was not soft on Putin. He asked why voters ought to care about the fuss over Trump and Russia. I contended that a foreign adversary subverting a US election was a prominent national security concern. And he stupefied me with this comment: “The premise of your book is accurate. I’m not going to argue with the premise of the book. Now do I think, again, that Trump is allowing Putin to win? No more than Obama wanted to play into the hands of the Iranians when he sent over $9 billion in an airplane in cash.”
为何他会称赞一本将特朗普描绘成被普京利用、背叛了美国的“工具人”的书呢？看来，面对事实时，科恩很难坚持自己新确立的亲特朗普立场。
Why was he hailing a book that depicts Trump as a useful idiot for Putin who has betrayed the United States? It seemed Cohen was having trouble sticking to his new Trump-friendly stance when confronted with facts.
你不能既说我的书准确无误，又说特朗普没有做错任何事——尽管科恩正是这么做的。而他试图把话题引向伊朗的辩解也毫无道理。（美国财政部向德黑兰支付了17亿美元，用以解决此前长期悬而未决的违约索赔案，该案当时正由海牙的伊朗-美国索赔法庭审理，而这一安排也恰好与多边伊朗核协议同步进行。）我们争论过，特朗普拒绝承认普京对美国发动的袭击是否是一件重要事件。
You cannot say my book is accurate and Trump has done no wrong—though that’s what Cohen did. And his attempted deflection referring to Iran made no sense. (It was $1.7 billion that the Treasury Department paid Tehran to settle a long-standing breach-of-contract claim pending before the Iran–US Claims Tribunal at The Hague, an arrangement that coincided with the multilateral Iran nuclear agreement.) We argued over whether Trump’s refusal to acknowledge Putin’s assaults on the United States was an important matter.
“百分之百重要，而且确实如此，”科恩最终说道。但他紧接着又补充道：“这只是一个人的看法。”想必是指我的看法。随后他又说：“我为你鼓掌。我赞赏你写这本书。我同意书中的基本观点：俄罗斯是坏的，美国是好的。”
“One hundred percent and it is,” Cohen eventually said. But he quickly added, “It is one person’s opinion.”Presumably mine. He then remarked: “I applaud you. I applaud the writing of this book. I agree with the premise: Russia, bad; America, good.”
临近结束时，科恩说：“你，大卫，能来，最棒的一点在于，你我之间可以就不同观点展开一场尊重且开放的对话……我相信，这正是当今美国所需要的，只有这样，我们才能真正开始重新成为美国人。”
Toward the end, Cohen said: “The beauty of having you, David, come on is the fact that you and I can have a respectful and an open conversation about differences of opinions…That’s what I believe is needed today in America in order for us to actually start to become Americans again.”
我回应道：“我希望你的那位朋友——总统——也能抱有这种态度。”我指出，特朗普经常“把那些他不喜欢的人贬称为共产主义者、激进分子、国家的敌人……他是个煽动家，而且实际上利用总统的权威来分裂美国……我希望现在你们成了朋友，他能听你的话，也希望你能倾尽全力，用你那巨大的影响力说服他停止那些无稽之谈，努力团结国家，这样我们才能进行这样的对话。”科恩没有上钩。他说：“我很感激你。我尊重你。祝你这本书一切顺利。我推荐大家阅读它。”对此，我无法反驳。
I replied, “I wish that sentiment was held by your friend the president.”I stated that Trump routinely “denigrates people he doesn’t like as communists, radicals, enemies of the state…He’s a demagogue, and he uses the bully pulpit actually to divide America…I hope now that you’re pals, he will listen to you and that you will spend all your energy and your great strength to convince him to drop the bullshit and try to unite the country so we can have these conversations.”Cohen didn’t take the bait. He said: “I appreciate you. I respect you. I wish you the best of luck with your book. I recommend people read it.”I couldn’t argue with that.
科恩原本已经重新赢得了特朗普的青睐，可现在他却劝听众去读一本书，书中指出特朗普其实参与了普京针对美国的“黄昏之战”。我有些困惑，但后来想来，科恩最近的立场转变让他自己也无所适从——他同样搞不清该如何既支持特朗普，又显得公正不偏，同时又不完全沦为“MAGA狂热分子”。祝他好运吧。
Cohen had wiggled his way back into Trump’s good graces, but here he was telling his listeners to read a book that shows that Trump has been complicit in Putin’s twilight war against the United States. I was confused, but I concluded that Cohen’s recent reversal had caused him some whiplash and he, too, was confused about how to be pro-Trump, appear fair-minded, and not go full MAGA. Good luck with that.
有一次我开玩笑说，希望特朗普能读到这本书。“把书寄给我，”科恩说道，“我会去见他，亲手交到他手里。”于是我让出版商给科恩寄了一本。不过他能信守承诺吗？这种可能性有多大呢？
At one point, I kiddingly remarked that I hoped Trump reads . “Send me the book,” Cohen said. “I’m going to go see him, and I’ll hand it to him.”I asked my publisher to mail Cohen a copy. What are the odds he keeps that promise?