克里斯蒂安·阿曼普尔与巴勒斯坦民主活动家、新道路党领袖萨默尔·辛吉拉维就巴勒斯坦权力机构主席马哈茂德·阿巴斯决定将议会选举推迟近一年的决定进行了对话。
Christiane Amanpour speaks with Samer Sinijlawi, Palestinian democracy activist and leader of the Masar Jadid party, about the decision by Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to delay by almost a year elections for parliament.
党，现在正从耶路撒冷夏季加入我的节目。欢迎来到节目。当你听到这个消息时，你脑中在想什么 >> 好吧，这是一个震惊。这不仅让我感到失望，也让成千上万、数十万看到这些选举能改变他们生活希望的年轻巴勒斯坦人感到失望。被推迟的不是一次简单的选举。这是年轻一代和平参与政治生活的机会。我们一直在说服他们，选票将改变他们的生活，但门却一次又一次地关闭，这使得主张民主变革的论点变得非常困难。
PARTY, IS JOINING ME NOW FROM JERUSALEM SUMMER, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM. WHAT WENT THROUGH YOUR HEAD WHEN YOU HEARD THIS NEWS >> WELL, IT WAS A SHOCK. IT IS A BIG DISAPPOINTMENT NOT ONLY FOR ME, BUT ALSO FOR THOUSANDS, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF YOUNG PALESTINIANS WHO SAW FROM THESE ELECTIONS A HOPE TO CHANGE THEIR LIFE. WHAT WAS POSTPONED IS NOT A SIMPLE ELECTION. IT IS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THE YOUNG GENERATION TO PEACEFULLY PARTICIPATE IN THE POLITICAL LIFE. WE KEEP CONVINCING THEM THAT THE BALLOT WILL CHANGE THEIR LIVES, AND THEN THE DOOR KEEPS CLOSING AGAIN AND AGAIN SO IT'S MAKING THE ARGUMENT FOR DEMOCRATIC CHANGE VERY DIFFICULT.
但无论如何，我们仍在继续这场竞赛。我们已经宣布，我们将继续作为即将到来的选举的候选人。我们将使用一切可能的和平、合法和政治手段来取消这一决定。我们将继续呼吁举行空中选举，因为巴勒斯坦人有权改变他们的领导人并取代他们。 >> 是的，是的。 >> 那么，让我来问你，你是否早就预见到了这一点，或者对此有所担忧。
BUT ANYHOW, WE ARE CONTINUING IN THIS RACE. WE HAVE DECLARED THAT WE WILL CONTINUE AS A CANDIDATE FOR THE COMING ELECTIONS. WE WILL USE EVERY POSSIBLE PEACEFUL, LEGAL AND POLITICAL MEANS TO CANCEL THAT DEGREE. WE WILL CONTINUE TO CALL FOR AN AERIAL ELECTIONS BECAUSE SIMPLY THE PALESTINIANS ARE ENTITLED TO CHANGE THEIR LEADERS AND REPLACE THEM TO. >> YEAH YEAH. >> SO LET ME JUST YOU KIND OF PREDICTED THIS OR FEARED THIS.
就在推迟决定前大约四天，你在《耶路撒冷邮报》上写道，当选票箱关闭时，极端分子会提供装满武器、葬礼和虚假承诺的其他箱子。我们不能重复这个错误。根据你刚才所写的内容，你认为这次推迟会带来什么结果？ >> 好吧，让我们回顾一下2021年被确定的选举。这些选举被取消了两次。
AND ABOUT FOUR DAYS BEFORE THIS POSTPONEMENT, YOU WROTE IN THE JERUSALEM POST, WHEN BALLOT BOXES ARE CLOSED, EXTREMISTS OFFER OTHER BOXES FILLED WITH WEAPONS, FUNERALS AND FALSE PROMISES. WE MUST NOT REPEAT THAT MISTAKE. WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL BE THE RESULT OF THIS DELAY, GIVEN WHAT YOU JUST WROTE, THERE? >> WELL, LET US GO BACK TO THE ELECTIONS THAT WERE FIXED IN 2021. THESE WERE CANCELED TWO.
不幸的是，我们面临了10月7日。两年后。所以当你关闭选票、选举箱的选项时，极端主义填补了空白。你可以理解巴勒斯坦人正处于层层叠加的、压迫和控制之中。有些事情需要改变。现任领导层未能改变人民的生活。我知道障碍来自占领，但任何声称承担责任的领导层都应该能够对此采取行动。这个执政了20年的现任领导层什么也没做。他们只是在计算他人行动的结果。
AND UNFORTUNATELY, WE FACED THE 7th OF OCTOBER. TWO YEARS LATER. SO WHEN YOU CLOSE THE OPTION OF THE BALLOTS, THE ELECTION BOXES, THE EXTREMES FILL THE GAP. YOU YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THAT PALESTINIANS ARE UNDER LAYERS OF LAYERS OF, OF, OF OPPRESSION AND CONTROL. AND SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE CHANGED. THE FAILURE OF THE CURRENT LEADERSHIP TO CHANGE THE LIVES OF THE PEOPLE. I UNDERSTAND THAT THE OBSTACLES COME FROM THE OCCUPATION, BUT ANY LEADERSHIP THAT CLAIMS RESPONSIBILITY SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. THIS CURRENT LEADERSHIP FOR 20 YEARS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DO NOTHING. IT'S JUST COUNTING THE RESULTS OF OF THE ACTIONS OF THE OTHERS.
选举对人们来说代表着希望——它让人们有机会选择自己的未来、改变自己的命运。因此，我非常担心：如果再次取消这些选举，我们可能只是在等待下一次灾难（比如地震）的发生。>> 萨尔玛：你认为那些被用来作为取消选举的借口，究竟只是表面的理由，还是真正反映了占领者所面临的挑战呢？你觉得加沙地带的选举真的能够顺利举行吗？
AND THE ELECTIONS ARE HOPE FOR PEOPLE. THEY THEY GIVE THE PEOPLE THE POSSIBILITY TO CHOOSE THEIR FUTURE, TO CHANGE THEIR FUTURE. SO I AM VERY WORRIED THAT AGAIN, BY CANCELING THESE ELECTIONS, WE MIGHT BE SIMPLY WAITING FOR THE NEXT EARTHQUAKE TO COME. >> SALMA. DO YOU THINK THERE'S ANYTHING I HEAR WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT EXCUSES THAT ARE BEING MADE FOR CANCELING THIS AND NOT JUST EXCUSES, BUT THE REAL CHALLENGES OF THE OCCUPATION? DO YOU THINK THAT ELECTIONS IN GAZA COULD HAVE BEEN ORGANIZED?
坦率地说，考虑到西岸地区定居者对巴勒斯坦人民实施的恐怖主义行为（我之所以使用“犹太恐怖分子”这个词，是因为以色列的一些官员就是这样称呼这些暴力定居者的），西岸的选举是否还能顺利进行呢？>> 关于选举是否能够顺利举行的问题，巴勒斯坦中央选举委员会已经给出了明确的答复：他们表示已经准备好在加沙和西岸组织选举。
AND FRANKLY, ELECTIONS IN THE WEST BANK, GIVEN THE TERRORISM THAT IS BEING METED ON THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE BY THE SETTLERS? AND I USE THAT WORD JEWISH TERRORIST, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT ISRAELI OFFICIALS, SOME OF THEM ARE CALLING THESE VIOLENT SETTLERS. >> WELL, THE ANSWER FOR THE READINESS OF THIS ELECTION CAME FROM THE PALESTINIAN CENTRAL ELECTION COMMITTEE. THEY SAID THEY ARE READY TO ORGANIZE THE ELECTIONS IN GAZA, AND THEY SAID THEY ARE READY TO ORGANIZE THE ELECTIONS IN THE WEST BANK.
当然，我们也必须认识到所有存在的困难以及占领者所采取的种种压迫措施；但这些困难其实是长期存在的、无法改变的现实。如果我们继续将这些困难当作推迟选举的借口，巴勒斯坦人民就永远无法行使自己的投票权。因此，我们必须勇敢地挑战这些不负责任的领导层，改变这些不公正的现状。我百分之百相信，如果选举能够如期举行，一切都会顺利进行。
NOW, IF WE I UNDERSTAND ALL THE DIFFICULTIES. I UNDERSTAND ALL THE OCCUPATION ACTIONS ON ON THE GROUND, BUT THESE ARE PERMANENT CONDITIONS. IF WE KEEP USING THEM AS EXCUSES TO DELAY THE ELECTIONS, THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE WILL NEVER HAVE THE RIGHT TO VOTE. SO WE NEED TO CHALLENGE THESE IRRESPONSIBLE LEADERSHIP CHALLENGES, THESE CONDITIONS, AND NOT USE THEM TO KEEP DELAYING THE VOTE I AM 100% SURE THAT THIS ELECTIONS WOULD HAVE WORKED PERFECTLY, THAT THE THE CALL FOR DELAYING THE ELECTION WAS NOT BASED ON THESE RESULTS OR THESE CIRCUMSTANCES.
那些在开罗开会并决定推迟选举的人，其实正是那些希望取代现有领导层的人；巴勒斯坦人民渴望通过选举选出更年轻、更有活力的领导人。要知道，目前巴勒斯坦领导层的平均年龄约为75岁，而60%的选民年龄在40岁以下啊。>> 没错，正是这样。
THE 25 PEOPLE THAT CONVENED IN CAIRO AND DECIDED THAT THERE IS A PALESTINIAN CONSENSUS ON DELAYING THE ELECTIONS ARE THE SAME 25 PEOPLE THAT THE ELECTIONS IS TRYING TO REPLACE THEM, THAT THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE ARE ARE TRYING TO GO TO THE BALLOTS TO CHOOSE DIFFERENT PEOPLE, YOUNGER PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, NOW, THE AVERAGE AGE OF THE PALESTINIAN LEADERSHIP IS AROUND 75 YEARS. THE 60% OF THE VOTERS ARE.
许多人甚至一生中从未参加过选举。正如您所说，那些40岁左右的人，嗯，您已经创建了一个新政党。您原本计划在这些即将到来的选举中参选，但在选举被取消之前。或者有些人说是被推迟了。您实际上，嗯，您认为谁会赢得这些选举？因为正如您所知，巴勒斯坦权力机构说，嗯，您知道，哈马斯可能再次获胜。还有那里。
YOUNGER THAN 40 YEARS OLD. >> EXACTLY. AND MANY OF THEM HAVE NOT HAD AN ELECTION IN THEIR LIFETIME. THOSE 40 YEAR OLDS, AS YOU SAY, UM, YOU HAVE STARTED A NEW PARTY. YOU WERE GOING TO RUN IN THESE UPCOMING ELECTIONS BEFORE THEY WERE CANCELED. OR SOME PEOPLE SAY DELAYED. DO YOU ACTUALLY, UM, WHO DO YOU THINK WOULD WIN THESE ELECTIONS? BECAUSE AS YOU KNOW, THE PA SAYS, WELL, YOU KNOW, HAMAS COULD WIN AGAIN. AND THERE.
接下来我们会怎样？您认为哪个派系可能赢得巴勒斯坦选举？>>嗯，从技术上和官方上讲，哈马斯并未参加此次选举。他们可能会以联盟名义进入其他名单，但作为哈马斯名单直接参赛，将不会有哈马斯名单。所以我认为这是一个机会，可以在这些选举中以近乎100%的保证进行，即哈马斯不会赢得这些选举。我认为这不是通常的猜测对象。
WHERE WILL WE BE NEXT? WHAT WHAT WAS YOUR SENSE OF WHAT FACTION MIGHT WIN A PALESTINIAN ELECTION >> WELL, TECHNICALLY AND OFFICIALLY, HAMAS IS NOT TAKING PART OF THIS RACE. THEY MIGHT GO INSIDE OTHER LIST IN A COALITION, BUT DIRECTLY AS HAMAS LIST, THERE WILL BE NO HAMAS LIST. SO I THINK THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO HOLD THESE ELECTIONS WITH ALMOST 100% GUARANTEES THAT HAMAS IS NOT GOING TO WIN THESE ELECTIONS. I THINK NOT THE USUAL SUSPECTS.
这些选举可能会带来许多新面孔。年轻的独立名单。例如，我们的名单正在提出一个新口号，一个从对抗到对话的新政治理念。以及仅仅是改变人们生活的政治。而在我们努力实现巴勒斯坦人民独立的同时，我们……我们的口号是：两国方案，一个巴勒斯坦国坐落在以色列国旁边，以色列人享有100%的安全，巴勒斯坦人享有100%的自由。
THE ELECTIONS COULD BRING A LOT OF NEW PLAYERS. YOUNG INDEPENDENT LISTS. OUR LIST, FOR EXAMPLE, IS RAISING A NEW SLOGAN, A NEW POLITICAL IDEA FROM CONFRONTATION TO DIALOG. AND SIMPLY A POLITICS THAT CHANGED THE LIVES OF PEOPLE. WHILE WE ARE TRYING TO ACHIEVE INDEPENDENCE AS PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, WE ARE. OUR SLOGAN IS A TWO STATE SOLUTION A PALESTINIAN STATE NEXT TO THE STATE OF ISRAEL, 100% SECURITY FOR THE ISRAELIS, AND 100% FREEDOM FOR THE PALESTINIANS.
而在我们通过谈判努力实现这一目标时，谈判是实现政治收益的唯一途径。这可能需要一年，也可能需要五年。但而在我们努力实现这一目标的过程中，我们需要能够提供服务来改善我们人民的生活。我们需要确保学生能够到达学校，农民能够到达他们的土地，工人能够到达他们的工作场所，人们能够按时领取工资，人们能够在医院获得医疗治疗和药物。那么，为什么巴勒斯坦人在我们努力争取自由的同时，就不能拥有更好的生活呢？
WHILE WE ARE TRYING, THROUGH NEGOTIATION AND NEGOTIATION IS THE ONLY MEANS TO ACHIEVE POLITICAL GAINS. IT MIGHT TAKE ONE YEAR, IT MIGHT TAKE FIVE YEARS. BUT WHILE WE ARE TRYING TO ACHIEVE THIS, WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO PROVIDE SERVICES TO IMPROVE THE LIVES OF OUR PEOPLE. WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT THE STUDENTS ARE ABLE TO REACH THEIR SCHOOLS, THAT THE FARMERS ARE ABLE TO REACH THEIR LAND, THAT THE WORKERS ARE ABLE TO REACH THEIR, THEIR, THEIR WORKPLACE, THAT PEOPLE ARE RECEIVING THEIR SALARIES ON TIME, THAT PEOPLE ARE FINDING MEDICAL TREATMENT AND MEDICINE IN, IN THE HOSPITALS. SO WHY SHOULDN'T THE PALESTINIANS HAVE BETTER LIVES WHILE WE ARE TRYING TO ACHIEVE FREEDOM?
这些是我们正在引入的路线，这些是新想法。我认为这样的新想法将使我们有更好的机会在巴勒斯坦人口中接受审视和检验。目前，传统势力一直坚持某种叙事，某种剧本，而这在过去60年里没有产生任何成果。因此，我们需要不断地问自己一个艰难的问题：我们正在走的道路是否能改善我们子女的生活，还是将继续延续他们的苦难？
THESE ARE THE LINES THAT WE ARE INTRODUCING, AND THESE ARE NEW IDEAS. I THINK SUCH NEW IDEAS WE WILL HAVE A BETTER CHANCE TO BE EXAMINED AND TESTED AMONG THE PALESTINIAN POPULATION. CURRENTLY, THE TRADITIONAL FORCES ARE STICKING TO A CERTAIN NARRATIVE, TO A CERTAIN SCRIPT THAT IS NOT PRODUCING ANYTHING FOR 60 YEARS. SO WE NEED ALWAYS TO ASK OURSELVES A DIFFICULT QUESTION. IS THE PATH THAT WE ARE GOING IN LEADING TO BETTER THE LIFE OF OUR CHILDREN, OR IS IT GOING TO CONTINUE THEIR SUFFER?
这个问题始终是有效的，我认为这样的选举正在使巴勒斯坦人民能够在不同的替代方案之间进行选择。>> 现在我们来谈谈房间里的大象，也就是另一方，以色列。如果不进行谈判，你就无法实现这一切。你说过，试图说服以色列人比施压他们更好。但如果内塔尼亚胡或其同类再次当选，你认为会发生什么？因为他们根本上已经说过，这不仅仅是关于选举，他们一直说：没有巴勒斯坦国，没有巴勒斯坦国。
THIS QUESTION IS VALID ALWAYS, AND I THINK SUCH ELECTIONS ARE ENABLING THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE TO CHOOSE BETWEEN DIFFERENT ALTERNATIVES >> LET'S JUST TALK ABOUT THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM, WHICH IS THE OTHER SIDE, ISRAEL. YOU CAN'T JUST ACHIEVE ALL THIS WITHOUT NEGOTIATING. YOU HAVE SAID THAT IT'S BETTER TO TRY TO PERSUADE ISRAELIS THAN TO PRESSURE THEM. BUT WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL HAPPEN IF NETANYAHU OR ANY OF THAT ILK ARE ELECTED AGAIN, BECAUSE THEY HAVE SAID FUNDAMENTALLY, AND IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT THE ELECTION, THEY HAVE SAID NO PALESTINIAN STATE, NO PALESTINIAN STATE.
而我们在约旦河西岸看到的所有行动，以及我们所看到的——你知道的——加沙被毁灭的景象，似乎正是他们所指的意思：没有巴勒斯坦国。那么，在这种情况下，我们如何谈判并创建一个国家或通往国家的道路？因为，正如我所说，以色列人民目前也不正是在为两国方案而跳起来欢呼。>> 好吧，这就是为什么我们正在诉诸于说服，去触及以色列人的思想和心灵。
AND ALL THE ACTION THAT WE SEE ON THE WEST BANK, AND CERTAINLY WHAT WE'VE SEEN, UH, YOU KNOW, DEVASTATE GAZA SEEMS TO BE WHAT THEY MEAN. NO PALESTINIAN STATE. SO HOW DO YOU NEGOTIATE AND CREATE A STATE OR THE PATHWAY TO A STATE UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES? BECAUSE, AS I SAY, THE ISRAELI PEOPLE ALSO ARE NOT EXACTLY JUMPING UP AND DOWN FOR A TWO STATE SOLUTION RIGHT NOW. >> WELL, THAT'S WHY WE ARE RESORTING TO CONVINCING, TO TOUCHING THE MINDS AND THE HEARTS OF THE ISRAELIS.
如果作为巴勒斯坦人民，我们无法在任何即将到来的以色列选举中，说服51%的以色列选民支持政治前景，支持两国方案，我们永远得不到它。实现这一点的唯一方法是说服以色列人诉诸于此。以色列人中有70%。我非常了解他们。他们现在对支持两国方案持犹豫态度，这不是出于意识形态，而是出于安全顾虑。
IF WE ARE NOT ABLE, AS PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, TO CONVINCE 51% OF THE ISRAELI VOTERS IN ANY COMING ISRAELI ELECTION TO VOTE FOR POLITICAL HORIZONS, TO VOTE FOR THE TWO STATE SOLUTION, WE WILL NEVER GET IT. THE ONLY WAY TO ACHIEVE THAT IS CONVINCING THE ISRAELIS TO RESORT TO IT. 70% FROM THE ISRAELIS. I KNOW THEM VERY WELL. THEY ARE NOW HESITANT TO SUPPORT THE TWO STATE SOLUTION, NOT OUT OF IDEOLOGY, BUT OUT OF SECURITY CONCERNS.
如果我们能够向以色列人证明，在巴勒斯坦方面有一个他们可以信任的伙伴，而我们的国家战略将以色列的安全作为其基础，不是为了帮他们一个忙，而是为了实现我们的国家利益。那么以色列人中就会发生一些变化。以色列人很聪明，他们能够知道何时出现了机会。我不认为以色列人更愿意永远生活在一个不民主、不犹太、也不安全的大以色列里。
IF WE ARE CAPABLE TO PROVE TO THE ISRAELIS THAT THERE IS A PARTNER THEY CAN TRUST ON THE PALESTINIAN SIDE, THAT OUR NATIONAL STRATEGY PUTS ISRAELI SECURITY IN ITS BASIS, NOT TO DO THEM A FAVOR, BUT TO ACHIEVE OUR NATIONAL INTERESTS. THEN SOMETHING WILL CHANGE AMONG THE ISRAELIS. THE ISRAELIS ARE SMART, AND THEY CAN KNOW WHEN THEY HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY. I DON'T THINK THAT THE ISRAELIS PREFER TO LIVE FOREVER IN A GREATER ISRAEL THAT IS NOT DEMOCRATIC, THAT IS NOT JEWISH, AND THAT IS NOT SAFE.
他们中的大多数人会更倾向于去一个安全的、民主的、犹太的小以色列。而这就是两国方案。因此，作为巴勒斯坦人，我们有义务，因为我们有紧迫感。你们知道，以色列人可以再等10或20年，直到他们下定决心，决定他们在巴勒斯坦问题上要走哪条路，选择哪个选项。而巴勒斯坦人。我们不能再等十天，而有200万人住在加沙的塑料罐里。
MOST OF THEM WILL PREFER TO GO TO A SMALLER ISRAEL THAT IS SAFE, THAT IS DEMOCRATIC AND IS JEWISH. AND THIS IS THE TWO STATE SOLUTION. SO WE HAVE THE OBLIGATION WE AS PALESTINIANS, BECAUSE WE HAVE A SENSE OF URGENCY. YOU KNOW, ISRAELIS CAN WAIT ANOTHER 10 OR 20 YEARS UNTIL THEY SETTLE THEIR MIND, WHICH DIRECTION THEY TAKE WITH THE PALESTINIANS, WHICH OPTION THEY CHOOSE. WITH THE PALESTINIANS. WE CANNOT WAIT ANOTHER TEN DAYS WITH 2 MILLION PEOPLE LIVING IN PLASTIC TANKS IN IN GAZA.
所以我们需要迈出第一步。我们需要开始这种改变。当我们开始这种改变时，我们就会对他们产生影响。我们，巴勒斯坦人，我们在所有其他国家面前拥有独有的影响力。我们是唯一能够说服以色列人他们可以信任我们来保障他们的安全，认为巴勒斯坦方面存在一个合格的伙伴，他们可以与之合作的人。而作为巴勒斯坦人，我们准备好与任何即将上台的以色列领导层进行对话。
SO WE NEED TO TAKE THE FIRST STEPS. WE NEED TO START THIS CHANGE. WHEN WE START THIS CHANGE, WE HAVE AN IMPACT ON THEM. WE, THE PALESTINIANS, WE HAVE EXCLUSIVE POWER OVER ALL THE OTHER NATIONS. WE ARE THE ONLY ONE THAT CAN CONVINCE THE ISRAELIS THEY CAN TRUST US IN THEIR SECURITY, THAT THERE IS ELIGIBLE PARTNER ON THE PALESTINIAN SIDE. THEY CAN WORK WITH. AND WE AS PALESTINIANS, WE ARE READY TO TALK TO ANY COMING ISRAELI LEADERSHIP.
我们。我们不想告诉以色列人他们应该投票支持哪位总理。这不重要。总理的名字不重要。重要的是他的选择、他的政策。那位总理是否会为政治变革打开空间？那位总理是否会明白以色列人的安全取决于巴勒斯坦人的自由？
WE. WE DON'T WANT TO TO DEFINE TO THE ISRAELIS WHICH PRIME MINISTER THEY WOULD LIKE TO TO VOTE TO. IT DOESN'T. IT DOESN'T MATTER THE NAME OF THE PRIME MINISTER. WHAT MATTERS IS THE CHOICES, THE POLICY OF THAT PRIME MINISTER WILL. THAT PRIME MINISTER ALLOW HORIZONS FOR POLITICAL CHANGE? WILL THAT PRIME MINISTER UNDERSTAND THAT THE SECURITY OF ISRAELIS DEPEND ON THE FREEDOM OF THE PALESTINIANS?
我们正在打开大门，以便为任何即将到来的以色列领导层开始工作，我们期待着这位当选的领导层也会打开大门 >> 我正在听您提出的一个非常合理的论点，但我也知道，许多以色列人，甚至可能是多数人，认为内塔尼亚胡让国家陷入的这场永久战争是让他们免受另一次10月7日袭击的唯一方式。这就是目前以色列方面正在发生的事情。
WE ARE OPENING THE DOORS TO START WORKING FOR ANY COMING, WITH ANY COMING ISRAELI LEADERSHIP, AND WE EXPECT THAT THAT ELECTED LEADERSHIP WILL ALSO OPEN THE DOORS >> I'M LISTENING TO A VERY REASONABLE ARGUMENT THAT YOU'RE MAKING, BUT I ALSO KNOW THAT MANY, MANY ISRAELIS, MAYBE EVEN THE MAJORITY, BELIEVE THAT THIS PERMANENT WAR THAT NETANYAHU HAS GOT THE COUNTRY IN IS THE ONLY WAY TO KEEP THEMSELVES SAFE FROM ANOTHER OCTOBER 7th. SO THAT IS WHAT'S HAPPENING ON THE ISRAELI SIDE RIGHT NOW.
我想问您，您为什么如此确信自己能够说服您。萨尔玛在您因第一次Intifada（第一次起义）作为青少年被捕时，在监狱里度过了五年。您在以色列监狱里度过了五年。我们目前正在阅读巴勒斯坦囚犯在以色列监狱里正在承受的恐怖待遇。您从监狱生活中学到了什么？ >> 好吧，我的个人故事是，呃，这就是我如此致力于巴勒斯坦自由的原因。
I WANT TO ASK YOU WHY YOU ARE SO CONVINCED THAT YOU CAN CONVINCE YOU. SALMA SPENT FIVE YEARS IN JAIL WHEN YOU WERE ARRESTED AS A TEENAGER DURING THE FIRST INTIFADA. YOU SPENT FIVE YEARS IN ISRAELI PRISON. WE'RE CURRENTLY READING THE HORRORS THAT ARE METED OUT TO PALESTINIAN PRISONERS IN ISRAELI PRISONS RIGHT NOW. WHAT DID YOU LEARN FROM YOUR TIME IN PRISON? >> WELL, MY PERSONAL STORY IS, UH, IS WHY I AM SO MUCH COMMITTED TO THE PALESTINIAN FREEDOM.
这是我亲身经历的故事。我出生在老城。我参加了第一次Intifada。我被关进以色列监狱五年。但我也与以色列人进行了40年的对话。我认为这是我一生中做过的最好的投资。我非常了解我的巴勒斯坦人民，我也非常了解以色列人民。如果你不能通过他人的眼睛来看待冲突，基督徒，你就无法理解任何冲突。我能够通过巴勒斯坦人的眼睛来看待这场冲突，因为我是一个巴勒斯坦人，一生每天都在经历这场冲突。
IT'S IT'S THE STORY THAT I HAVE LIVED. I, I WAS BORN IN THE OLD CITY. I PARTICIPATED IN THE FIRST INTIFADA. I WENT FOR ISRAELI JAIL FOR FIVE YEARS. BUT I ALSO ENGAGED IN 40 YEARS OF DIALOG WITH ISRAELIS. AND I CONSIDER THIS THE BEST INVESTMENT I HAVE DONE IN MY LIFE. I UNDERSTAND VERY MUCH MY PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, I UNDERSTAND VERY WELL THE ISRAELI PEOPLE. YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND ANY CONFLICT, CHRISTIAN, IF YOU ARE NOT ABLE TO SEE IT THROUGH THE EYES OF THE OTHERS. I CAN SEE THIS CONFLICT THROUGH THE EYES OF A PALESTINIAN BECAUSE I AM A PALESTINIAN WHO LIVED THIS CONFLICT EVERY DAY IN HIS LIFE.
我能在以色列人的眼中看到这场冲突。它只有两个字。它并不是一个非常复杂的冲突。一边是安全，另一边是自由。我认识以色列人。当我遇到一些以色列人时，我会告诉他们，我比他们更了解他们自己，因为我与你们左翼、中间派和右翼的所有人都有交流。你们彼此之间不交流。我确实非常了解以色列人。他们正在寻求一个充满安全的未来。
AND I CAN SEE THIS CONFLICT IN THE EYES OF ISRAELIS. AND IT IS ONLY TWO WORDS. IT'S NOT A VERY COMPLICATED CONFLICT. IT IS SECURITY FROM ONE SIDE, IT'S FREEDOM FROM THE OTHER SIDE. THE WAY I KNOW THE ISRAELIS. AND WHEN I MEET SOME ISRAELIS, I TELL THEM, I KNOW YOU BETTER THAN YOU KNOW YOURSELVES BECAUSE I TALK TO ALL OF YOU LEFT, CENTER, RIGHT. YOU DON'T TALK TO EACH OTHER. I REALLY KNOW THE ISRAELIS VERY WELL. THEY ARE LOOKING FOR A FUTURE WITH SECURITY.
他们内心所感受到的安全是真实的。我们需要击败他们心中那种恐惧。我们的敌人不是以色列人，真正的敌人是以色列人内心的恐惧。我们有一个共同的敌人，无论是我们还是以色列人。那就是无知。大多数巴勒斯坦人不了解以色列人，也不认识他们。大多数以色列人从未遇见过巴勒斯坦人。他们不认识巴勒斯坦人，也不了解巴勒斯坦人眼中的这场冲突。
SECURITY THEY FEEL IN THEIR HEARTS IS REAL. WE NEED TO DEFEAT THAT FEAR IN THAT IN THEIR HEARTS. OUR ENEMY IS NOT THE ISRAELIS, THE REAL ENEMY IS THE FEAR INSIDE THE ISRAELIS. AND WE HAVE A MUTUAL ENEMY, BOTH US AND THE ISRAELIS. IT'S IGNORANCE. MOST OF THE PALESTINIANS DON'T UNDERSTAND THE ISRAELIS AND DON'T KNOW THEM. THE MAJORITY OF THE ISRAELIS HAVE NEVER MET A PALESTINIAN. THEY DON'T KNOW THE PALESTINIANS, AND THEY DON'T KNOW THAT CONFLICT IN THE IN THE EYES OF THE PALESTINIANS, WE NEED TO CREATE LEADERSHIP THAT WILL BRIDGE THIS GAP.
我们需要建立能够弥合这一鸿沟的领导力。我认为，在自上而下的过程中建立信任可以加速这一进程。如果领导层在领导层面上达成一致，就会产生信任和信任。你不能仅仅通过提出要求就获得它，你需要一步步赢得它。有人需要启动这一进程。基督徒。我认为我们，如今的巴勒斯坦人，正是因为这种紧迫感，需要启动这一进程。
I THINK BUILDING TRUST IN A PROCESS OF TOP DOWN CAN SPEED UP THE PROCESS. IF THE LEADERSHIP ON THE LEADERSHIP LEVEL, THERE WILL BE TRUST AND TRUST. YOU CANNOT GET IT IF YOU ASK IT, YOU NEED TO EARN IT STEP BY STEP. SOMEBODY NEEDS TO START THIS. CHRISTIAN. AND I THINK WE, THE PALESTINIANS NOW, BECAUSE OF THE SENSE OF URGENCY WE NEED TO START THIS PROCESS.
因此，在这极其复杂和困难的形势下，在这场运动中，在这场巴勒斯坦选举运动中，当有大量愤怒存在，当有大量硬感情存在，当加沙的200万人如今正在塑料帐篷下度过他们的第三个冬天时，这是一个非常艰难的处境。而我们却在此提出了从对抗到对话的口号。这非常矛盾。但我看到年轻一代相信这一点。我看到年轻一代通过这条道路看到了摆脱苦难的出路。因此，这对人民具有吸引力。这回应了他们的需求。
SO RAISING THE SLOGAN IN A VERY COMPLICATED AND DIFFICULT SITUATION LIKE THIS, IN THIS CAMPAIGN, IN THIS PALESTINIAN ELECTION CAMPAIGN, WHEN THERE IS A LOT OF ANGER, WHEN THERE IS A LOT OF HARD FEELINGS, WHEN 2 MILLION PEOPLE IN GAZA ARE NOW ENTERING THEIR THIRD WINTER UNDER PLASTIC TENTS, IT'S IT'S A VERY DIFFICULT SITUATION. AND WE COME AND WE RAISE SLOGAN OF FROM CONFRONTATION TO DIALOG. IT'S VERY CONTRADICTION. BUT I HAVE SEEN THAT THE YOUNG GENERATION BELIEVES IN IT. I HAVE SEEN THAT THE YOUNG GENERATION SEES THE WAY OUT OF THE SUFFERING THROUGH THIS WAY. SO IT IS APPEALING TO THE PEOPLE. IT IS RESPONDING TO THEIR NEEDS.
这是一个切实可行的愿景。当你说“我只需要说服以色列相信这一点就足够了”时，其实是因为我们在加沙战争中明白了：世界上没有任何力量能够迫使以色列改变立场。要想让以色列做出政治决策，唯一的办法就是说服大多数以色列人。这应该成为我们的目标，而且这是完全可以实现的。这不是幻想；相反，如果认为“继续对抗会带来某种好的结果”，那才是一种幻想。
IT'S A VISION THAT IS PRACTICAL. WHEN YOU SAY THAT ALL I NEED IS TO CONVINCE ISRAELI IT IS TRUE BECAUSE WE HAVE LEARNED DURING THE WAR OVER GAZA, WE HAVE SEEN THAT NOBODY IN THE WORLD HAS THE POWER TO PRESSURE ISRAEL. THE ONLY WAY TO GET A POLITICAL DECISION FROM ISRAEL IS TO CONVINCE A MAJORITY OF ISRAELIS. AND THAT SHOULD BE OUR TASK. AND IT IS DOABLE. THIS IS NOT FANTASY. BELIEVING IN SOMETHING ELSE IS FANTASY. BELIEVING THAT THE CONTINUATION OF CONFRONTATION WILL LEAD US TO