沃尔特·艾萨克森加入斯默科尼什节目，讨论埃隆·马斯克在乌克兰星链接入中的作用，以及谁应该控制新兴技术。
Walter Isaacson joins Smerconish to Elon Musk’s role in Ukraine’s Starlink access and who should control emerging technologies.
上。震级。>> 这一周，如果我不问你关于埃隆·马斯克的问题，特别是乌克兰军方在与俄罗斯的战争中途失去了星链速度，那我就失职了。马斯克指责特朗普。一份新报告称，这实际上是马斯克的主意。你知道，你曾写过关于埃隆·马斯克在之前决定星链在乌克兰的使用。这符合你对他了解的情况吗？你如何辨别刚刚发生的事情？
UP. MAGNITUDE. >> THIS WEEK I'D BE I'D BE DERELICT IF I DIDN'T ASK YOU ABOUT ELON MUSK IN PARTICULAR, UKRAINE'S MILITARY LOST STARLINK SPEED IN THE MIDDLE OF THAT WAR WITH RUSSIA. MUSK BLAMES TRUMP. A NEW REPORT SAYS IT WAS ACTUALLY MUSK'S IDEA. YOU KNOW, THE PERSONALITY YOU'VE WRITTEN ABOUT ELON MUSK DECIDING STARLINK'S USE IN UKRAINE BEFORE. DOES THIS FIT WITH WHAT YOU KNOW OF HIM? HOW DO YOU DISCERN WHAT JUST TRANSPIRED? >> WHEN IT HAPPENED BEFORE, WHERE MUSK WAS CONTROLLING STARLINK USE IN UKRAINE, HE WENT IN AT THE VERY BEGINNING OF THAT WAR AND PRETTY MUCH SAVED UKRAINE BY IMMEDIATELY GIVING HIM COMMUNICATIONS. THEN, AS YOU SAY, MOVE BACK AND FORTH.
之前发生的时候，当时马斯克正在控制乌克兰的星链使用，他在战争一开始就介入，并通过立即提供通信基本上拯救了乌克兰。然后，正如你所说，情况出现了反复。当时发生的事情是，嗯，SpaceX，星链，他们决定创建一个被称为“星盾”的东西，这个东西完全由五角大楼控制，即联邦政府。而你上周看到的情况实际上归结为特朗普和特朗普政府的一个决定：接管星盾并对其进行限流。
WHAT HAPPENED THEN WAS THAT, UH, SPACEX, STARLINK, THEY DECIDED TO CREATE SOMETHING THAT WAS CALLED STAR SHIELD THAT'S TOTALLY IN THE CONTROL OF THE PENTAGON. THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. AND WHAT YOU SAW THIS PAST WEEK REALLY COMES DOWN TO A DECISION BY TRUMP AND THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION TO TAKE STAR SHIELD AND THROTTLE IT. NOW, YOU ASK, DOES ELON FAVOR THAT?
现在，你问，埃隆是否支持那件事？不管怎么样。埃隆已经不在了。我的意思是，我不喜欢这一点，但他在乌克兰人眼里反复横跳——一会儿是英雄，一会儿又憎恨泽连斯基。他非常反复无常。但这就是为什么你不希望像他这样的人对这项技术拥有完全的控制权。这应该由我们民主选举的领导人来掌控。如果我们不喜欢特朗普所做的事情，以及他对星盾——也就是乌克兰使用星链——进行限流，那么这就是我们在投票时必须做的事情。
WHATEVER. ELON'S GONE. I MEAN, I DON'T LIKE IT, BUT HE GOES BACK AND FORTH OF BEING A HERO FOR THE UKRAINIANS. AND THEN HATING ZELENSKY. HE'S VERY MERCURIAL. BUT THAT'S WHY YOU DO NOT WANT SOMEBODY LIKE HIM HAVING FULL POWER OVER THIS TECHNOLOGY. IT SHOULD BE OUR DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED LEADERS. AND IF WE DON'T LIKE WHAT TRUMP IS DOING AND THROTTLING START, UH, STAR SHIELD, THE USE OF STARLINK FOR UKRAINE, THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE TO DO WHEN WE VOTE.
但你无法想象马斯克在没有压力的情况下做到这一点，或者至少没有白宫的支持。这是事实。>> 哦，是啊。不，白宫决定星盾的使用方式。而这是我们正在审视的更大图景，我在这期《建造者》播客以及我新书《创新者》的序言中谈到过，你知道，当你拥有像这样的令人惊叹的新技术时，就会有巨额投资随之而来，有时你会看到巨大权力的积累，就像一个世纪前所谓的“强盗 baron”一样。
BUT YOU CAN'T IMAGINE MUSK DOING IT WITHOUT PRESSURE, OR AT LEAST THE SUPPORT OF THE WHITE HOUSE. TRUE. >> OH, YEAH. NO, THE WHITE HOUSE DECIDES HOW STAR SHIELD IS USED. AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WE'RE LOOKING AT THE BROADER PICTURE HERE, WHICH I TALK ABOUT IN THIS BUILDERS PODCAST AND THE NEW INTRODUCTION, YOU KNOW, TO MY BOOK, THE INNOVATORS, WHICH IS WHEN YOU HAVE, UH, BREATHTAKING NEW TECHNOLOGIES LIKE THIS, YOU HAVE HUGE INVESTMENTS THAT COME ALONG AND YOU GET AN ACCUMULATION OF GREAT POWER SOMETIMES IN WHAT WERE CALLED THE ROBBER BARONS A CENTURY AGO.
这就是为什么你需要像西奥多·罗斯福这样的人出现。当我说话时，我说，好吧，我们要在这里设立一些防护栏。我们要对此进行控制。因此，即使我与达里奥、丹妮拉·阿莫代伊或埃隆·马斯克等人谈论这项新技术时，他们说我们正处于一场竞赛中，要快速推进这一点。我们不能放慢速度。但如果要设立防护栏，那必须是政府或某个实体来设立这些防护栏。
AND THAT'S WHY YOU DO NEED SOMEBODY LIKE A TEDDY ROOSEVELT WHO COMES ALONG. AND WHEN I TALK AND SAYS, ALL RIGHT, WE'RE GOING TO PUT SOME GUARDRAILS HERE. WE'RE GOING TO TAKE CONTROL OVER IT. SO EVEN WHEN I TALK TO PEOPLE LIKE DARIO AND DANIELA AMODEI OR ELON MUSK AND OTHERS ABOUT THIS NEW TECHNOLOGY, THEY SAY WE'RE IN A RACE TO DO THIS. WE CAN'T SLOW DOWN. BUT IF THERE'S GOING TO BE GUARDRAILS, IT'S GOT TO BE THE GOVERNMENT OR SOME ENTITY THAT PUTS THESE GUARDRAILS ON.
而这就是《建造者》播客系列所要探讨的内容。比如，我们如何控制一种可能让人类价值观被抛在后面的技术？>> 快速最后一个问题。你担心泡沫吗？我想到，你在 .com 泡沫破裂后不久就接管了 CNN，而如今科技股在过去几天里下跌，数万亿美元正被投入人工智能。我们是不是在看同一部电影？>> 绝对是的。顺便说一句，你想回溯100年前，就像我上次谈到的那样，当时我们曾有过这种基础设施投资的热潮，比如当时铁路建设占GDP的4%或5%。
AND THAT'S WHAT THIS PODCAST SERIES ON THE BUILDERS IS ABOUT. LIKE, HOW DO WE CONTROL A TECHNOLOGY THAT MIGHT LEAVE HUMAN VALUES BEHIND? >> QUICK FINAL QUESTION. DO YOU WORRY ABOUT A BUBBLE? IT OCCURS TO ME THAT YOU RAN CNN RIGHT AFTER THE.COM BUBBLE BURST, WITH TECH STOCKS FALLING IN THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS, TRILLIONS BEING SPENT ON AI. ARE WE WATCHING THE SAME MOVIE >> ABSOLUTELY. AND BY THE WAY, YOU WANT TO GO BACK 100 YEARS, LIKE I TALKED ABOUT THE LAST TIME WE HAD THIS TYPE OF INVESTMENT IN INFRASTRUCTURE, LIKE 4 OR 5% OF THE GDP WAS WHEN THE RAILROADS WERE ALL RACING TO BUILD RAILWAYS ACROSS AMERICA.
结果如何？你得到的是一个拥有惊人铁路系统的国家。他们成功了。但250家铁路公司破产了。你将在这里看到大量破坏，因为这笔万亿美元的数据投资正在进行。
WHAT HAPPENS? YOU GET A COUNTRY THAT HAS AN AMAZING RAIL SYSTEM. THEY GET THROUGH. BUT 250 RAILWAY COMPANIES GO BANKRUPT. YOU'RE GOING TO SEE A LOT OF DESTRUCTION IN THE WAKE HERE, BECAUSE THIS INVESTMENT OF TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN DATA