2024年，乔·罗根的播客曾是唐纳德·特朗普总统的平台，帮助他赢得了连任。今年，它却成了一个类似举报人发声的对话场所，指控特朗普政府最高层存在“腐败”。
In 2024, Joe Rogan’s podcast was a platform for President Donald Trump, helping him win reelection. This year, it’s a place for a whistleblower-style conversation alleging “corruption” at the highest levels of the Trump administration.
这是一个相当大的转变，对特朗普任期的最后两年来说不是好兆头。
That’s quite a shift — and it doesn’t bode well for Trump’s final two years in office.
上周五，罗根发布了一期节目，嘉宾是卡莉·米恩斯。她是MAHA（让美国再次健康）运动的倡导者，也是卫生部长小罗伯特·F·肯尼迪的前顾问。肯尼迪已于10月底辞职。
Last Friday, Rogan released an episode with Calley Means, the MAHA advocate and former adviser to Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr., who resigned in late October.
米恩斯在播客中语气急切，指责特朗普的核心圈子阻挠健康食品政策，偏袒企业游说者和金主。他点名了幕僚长苏西·怀尔斯，但表示自己更大的目标是“体制”，而非怀尔斯本人。
Means spoke with urgency on the podcast, accusing Trump’s inner circle of blocking healthy-food policies and favoring corporate lobbyists and donors. He singled out chief of staff Susie Wiles, though he said his bigger target was the “system,” not Wiles.
据CNN报道，特朗普提名斯蒂芬·米勒出任新幕僚长时，怀尔斯已经提交了辞呈。
Wiles had already submitted her resignation by the time the episode was published, according to CNN’s reporting on Trump naming Stephen Miller as his new chief of staff.
但米恩斯显然有意让怀尔斯被撤职，并公开指出政府在MAHA议程上的失败。他将进展受阻归咎于财力雄厚的特殊利益集团，对罗根说：“他们手里有企业的钱”，而“我们有你，我们有真相传播出去。就像，让这个体制蒙羞。羞耻感是管用的。就像，把真相传播出去确实管用。”在节目后段，米恩斯说，在政府内部工作时，他常常会“威胁”对方可能面临“负面报道”，以此推动自己和肯尼迪的议程项目。
But Means certainly intended to get Wiles removed — and to call out the administration’s MAHA failures. He blamed big-money special interests for stymying progress, telling Rogan: “They’ve got the corporate money” while “we have you, we have truth getting out there. Like, and, shaming the system. Shame works. Like, the truth getting out there actually works.”Later in the episode, Means said that while working inside the government, he would often “threaten” the possibility of “bad press” to push through his and Kennedy’s agenda items.
“只有这个才能推动任何事情，”他说……“唯一重要的就是特殊利益集团的钱，或者他们会不会被写一篇负面报道。”“哦，我的天，”罗根叹了口气。
“That’s all that moves anything,” he said… “All that matters is special interest money or whether they’re going to get a bad article [written] about them.”“Oh my God,” Rogan sighed.
整段对话似乎让主持人心情沉重。他通常更愿意和朋友开玩笑，或者猜测大脚怪的事（那是本周早些时候一期节目里的内容）。
The whole conversation seemed to weigh heavily on the host, who’d generally rather be joking with friends or speculating about Bigfoot (that was in an episode earlier in the week).
这一事件凸显了2026年媒体运作的一个方面：米恩斯在接受更传统的网络电视采访之前，选择了一个自由流畅、时长数小时的播客，来抨击特朗普政府。
And the episode underscored something about how media works in 2026: Means chose a free-flowing, hours-long podcast to speak out against the Trump administration before granting a more traditional network television interview.
罗根那期节目产生了立即的影响。“我们正在研究这个案例，”民主党众议员罗伯特·加西亚说，他将担任众议院监督委员会的下一任主席，他在CNN的《国情咨文》节目中对达娜·巴什说。
The Rogan episode had an immediate impact. “We’re looking at this very case,” Democratic Rep. Robert Garcia, the incoming chair of the House Oversight Committee, told Dana Bash on CNN’s “State of the Union.”
共和党参议员罗恩·约翰逊也在福克斯新闻上提到了此事，称米恩斯“详尽地”揭露了华盛顿的腐败。播客周五播出后不久，肯尼迪在推特上发布了一份暗示米恩斯说法的声明，但没有点名他的前顾问。
Republican Sen. Ron Johnson also brought it up on Fox News, saying Means laid out Washington corruption “in gory detail.”Shortly after the podcast came out on Friday, Kennedy tweeted out a statement alluding to Means’ claims, albeit without naming his former adviser.
“既得利益在华盛顿长期左右两党执政期间都掌握着权力，”肯尼迪写道。“特朗普总统和我打算继续战斗，直到美国人民——而非企业影响力——主导我们的健康政策。我坚定支持特朗普总统以及我们共同推进的历史性改革。”
“Entrenched interests have exercised power in Washington under both parties for decades,” Kennedy wrote. “President Trump and I intend to keep fighting until the American people — not corporate influence — drive our health policies. I stand firmly behind President Trump and the historic reforms we are advancing together.”
这一事件还引发了法律威胁。梅恩斯的攻击目标之一，特朗普的最高政治顾问詹姆斯·布莱尔，周末通过X回击梅恩斯，并表示已向梅恩斯发出警告：“如果他诽谤我，我会考虑起诉他。”
The episode has also resulted in legal threats. One of Means’ targets, Trump’s top political adviser James Blair, pushed back on Means via X over the weekend, and said he’d put Means on notice that “I’d consider suing him if he defamed me.”
而威尔斯的一位发言人向《Axios》表示：“梅恩斯的指控令人愤怒，具有诽谤性，且显然是虚假的。”
And a spokesperson for Wiles told Axios that “Means’ accusations are outrageous, defamatory and provably false.”
连特朗普白宫前新闻秘书肖恩·斯派塞也表示震惊。“我在30年里见过很多事，”他周一在接受《The Huddle》的丹·特伦廷采访时说。“但我从未见过像卡莉·梅恩斯所做的那样……我从未见过有人像卡莉·梅恩斯那样把房子烧掉。”
Even former Trump White House press secretary Sean Spicer sounded stunned. “I’ve seen a lot in 30 years,” he told The Huddle’s Dan Turrentine on Monday. “What I’ve never seen is what Calley Means did… I’ve never seen someone burn down the house like Calley Means did.”
梅恩斯周一继续施压，写道：“乔·罗根那期节目产生了文化影响，因为每个观看的人都知道这是真的。”
Means kept up the pressure on Monday, writing that “the Joe Rogan episode has caused cultural impact because everyone watching knows it’s true.”
他暗示其他人掌握着“企业控制”的证据，应该公开分享：“给政府现任和前任领导人——是时候发声了。是时候向媒体讲述你们所看到的事情了。”
He suggested that others have evidence of “corporate capture” and should share it: “To current and former leaders in the admin – it is time to speak out. It is time to speak to the press about what you saw.”
梅恩斯为CBS节目《面对国家》录制了一期后续采访，该节目将于周日播出，并表示特朗普的一些高级顾问在许多方面把总统“当成婴儿对待”。
Means taped a follow-up interview with Margaret Brennan for Sunday’s “Face the Nation” on CBS and said that some of Trump’s senior advisors treated the president “like a baby in many respects.”
当布伦南询问特朗普是否事先知道梅恩斯将在罗根的节目上公开发言时，梅恩斯说：“我不知道。我知道总统与乔·罗根关系密切，并欣赏他的意见。”去年4月，罗根与特朗普一同在椭圆办公室签署了一项旨在鼓励扩大迷幻药物研究的行政命令，罗根本人曾敦促总统推进这一政策。
When Brennan asked if Trump knew in advance that Means was going to go public on Rogan’s show, Means said, “I have no idea. I know the president is close with Joe Rogan and appreciates his opinion.”Last April, Rogan joined Trump in the Oval Office for theg of an executive order aimed at encouraging expanded research into psychedelic drugs, a policy Rogan had personally urged the president to pursue.
但罗根能够接触特朗普，并没有阻止他在自己的播客中批评该政府，包括关于ICE和对伊朗的战争等话题。
But Rogan’s access to Trump hasn’t stopped him from criticizing the administration on his podcast, including over ICE and the war in Iran, among other topics.
特朗普争取罗根等播客主持人，被认为是他2024年媒体竞选的重要组成部分——以至于在中期选举周期中缺席也引起了关注。
Trump’s courting of podcasters like Rogan was thought to be an important part of his media campaign in 2024 – so much so that its absence during the midterm election cycle also garnered attention.
特朗普顾问亚历克斯·布鲁塞维茨在周末的福克斯新闻节目中被问及此事。“他们这次没有为我们出现。他们没有来参与，”他承认。
Trump adviser Alex Bruesewitz was asked about it on Fox News over the weekend. “They weren’t there for us this go-around. They weren’t there to engage,” he acknowledged.
布鲁塞维茨还暗示，共和党在关键选举中一些最具知名度的候选人，作为播客嘉宾并不特别有吸引力。
Bruesewitz also suggested that some of the Republican Party’s highest-profile candidates in key races weren’t particularly appealing as podcast guests.
“比如罗杰·马歇尔这样的人，在西奥·冯或乔·罗根这样的节目上，不会是一个引人入胜的嘉宾，”他说。“所以这次的动态大不相同。”
“Somebody like a Roger Marshall, for example, wouldn’t be a compelling guest on a program like Theo Von or Joe Rogan,” he said. “So it was a much different dynamic this go-around.”