在接受播客主持人乔·罗根采访时，前特朗普白宫顾问卡利·米恩斯指责政府高层助手和战略家迎合特殊利益集团，并建议总统“清理门户”。这场长达两个多小时的采访于周五发布。
In an interview with podcaster Joe Rogan, Calley Means accused top administration aides and strategists of favoring powerful industries. Calley Means, a former Trump White House adviser who quit last month, accused top administration aides and strategists of catering to special interests, and recommended that the president “clears house” in an extensive interview with podcast host Joe Rogan released Friday.
米恩斯曾担任卫生部长小罗伯特·肯尼迪的高级助手，他在采访中详细讲述了自己在政府内部的经历，频繁点名指控多名助手阻挠或阻碍了“让美国再次健康”运动内部广受欢迎的政策进展。大约两周前，米恩斯因白宫在推行他和其他高级卫生官员寻求的某些食品政策上拖延而辞职。
Means, who also served as a top aide of Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr., recounted for more than two hours his time inside the administration, frequently naming aides that he alleged blocked or hindered progress on policies popular within the Make America Healthy Again movement. Means quit his job roughly two weeks ago amid White House delays in enacting some of the food policies he and other top health officials had been seeking.
此次采访发布之际，民主党本周取得压倒性选举胜利，引发共和党内部就惨败原因的相互指责。米恩斯声称，特朗普中期选举策略的设计者在十一月大选前“痴迷于重划选区”。
The interview comes as Democrats had a sweeping electoral victory this week, prompting Republican finger-pointing over the causes of the wipeout. Means claims the architects of Trump’s midterm strategy were “obsessed with redistricting” ahead of the November elections.
米恩斯的多项指控指向特朗普的几位核心助手和盟友，包括幕僚长苏西·怀尔斯、高级政治顾问詹姆斯·布莱尔以及特朗普首席民调专家托尼·法布里齐奥。他一度声称，怀尔斯出于担心会损害来自糖业的政治献金，而叫停了卫生部门的一项食品倡议。播客发布后的周五，特朗普宣布由其长期助手斯蒂芬·米勒接替怀尔斯担任幕僚长。法布里齐奥未予置评。
Several of Means’s allegations centered on some top Trump aides and allies, including Susie Wiles, his chief of staff; James Blair, a top political adviser; and Tony Fabrizio, Trump’s chief pollster. At one point, he claimed that Wiles blocked one of the health department’s food initiatives out of fear it would hurt political donations from the sugar industry. On Friday, after the podcast was released, Trump announced that Wiles would be replaced as chief of staff by his longtime aide Stephen Miller. Fabrizio did not provide comment.
“他的政府绝对已被那些他激励选民、承诺要赶出华盛顿的人渗透了，”米恩斯说。
“It is absolutely true that his administration has been infiltrated by the very people that he energized voters to say he would get out of D.C.,” Means said.
在播客的后半段，他说：“我认为特朗普总统能够挽救这个总统任期，能够更换幕僚，重新回到更多‘美国优先’的战斗姿态，对抗‘沼泽’，并能完成许多事情，甚至可能与民主党人达成一些成果。”
Later in the podcast, he said, “I think President Trump can save this presidency, can change staff, and get back on more of an America First fighting position against the swamp and get a lot done, and maybe even get some things done with Democrats.”
白宫发言人艾莉森·舒斯特在一份声明中说：“‘让美国再次健康’联盟在特朗普总统身上找到了一位捍卫者，他在‘让美国再次健康’方面取得了令人难以置信的进展。”
In a statement, White House spokeswoman Allison Schuster said “the MAHA coalition has found a champion in President Trump, who has made incredible strides to Make America Healthy Again.”
她说：“政府已经为‘让美国再次健康’议程赢得了广泛胜利，包括彻底改革美国人的膳食指南，从食品供应链中剔除人工成分，以及投资再生农业。特朗普总统和肯尼迪部长继续日夜奋战，为美国人民争取更多胜利。”一些白宫官员反驳称，怀尔斯是“让美国再次健康”的捍卫者，而米恩斯的部分说法目前无法独立核实。
“The Administration has already secured extensive victories for the MAHA Agenda, including overhauling the dietary guidelines for Americans, axing artificial ingredients in our food supply, and investing in regenerative farming,” she said. “President Trump and Secretary Kennedy continue to work around the clock to deliver more wins for the American people.”
米恩斯声称，特朗普并不完全知晓其核心幕僚做出的某些决定，因为他“无法无所不在”，称在最高法院限制针对一家主要农药制造商的大规模诉讼浪潮后，特朗普曾问“到底是怎么搞的”。政府在该案中支持农药制造商，这与拜登政府的立场截然不同。
Some White House officials have countered that Wiles is a MAHA champion, and some of Means’s claims could not immediately be independently verified. Means claimed that Trump is not fully aware of some of the decisions made by his top staff because he “can’t be everywhere at once,” saying that Trump asked “how the hell did this happen” after the Supreme Court restricted a massive wave of lawsuits against a major pesticide manufacturer.
周五，肯尼迪在社交媒体上写道：“‘清理沼泽’是一项授权，我们有义务兑现。”
The administration supported the pesticide maker in the case, a switch from the Biden administration.
他写道：“既得利益者在两党执政下已在华盛顿行使权力数十年。特朗普总统和我打算继续战斗，直到美国人民——而非企业影响力——主导我们的健康政策。”米恩斯对政府的批评之际，正值“让美国再次健康”运动的若干政策优先事项陷入停滞——该运动源于特朗普与肯尼迪的政治结盟。
On social media Friday, Kennedy wrote that “draining the swamp is a mandate, and we have an obligation to deliver.”“Entrenched interests have exercised power in Washington under both parties for decades,” he wrote.
MAHA运动由多个、有时相互竞争的派系组成，其中包括推动更健康食品、对疫苗进行重大变革以及减少农药使用的派系。在白宫和卫生部任职期间，米恩斯大力推动MAHA政策，特别是与食品相关的政策。这包括努力让食品公司停用合成色素、修改膳食指南，以及倡导各州采取规则，禁止在国家食品券计划中购买苏打水和糖果。
“President Trump and I intend to keep fighting until the American people—not corporate influence—drive our health policies.”Means’s criticism of the administration comes as several policy priorities of the MAHA movement — which was born out of the political alignment between Trump and Kennedy — have stalled. The MAHA movement is composed of multiple and, at times, competing factions, including ones pushing for healthier food, major changes to vaccines and less pesticide use.
在播客访谈中，米恩斯感叹中期选举的宣传信息缺乏围绕MAHA运动核心议题的内容，因为民调显示，大多数美国人同意，对食品化学添加剂和农作物种植中使用的农药监管不力。
While at the White House and health department, Means pushed aggressively for MAHA policies, particularly related to food.
在一份声明中，布莱尔表示：“在本次大选中，‘让美国再次健康’（MAHA）并非绝大多数选民最关心的议题，即使它是一部分选民最关心的议题。这不是我的观点，这是研究中选民所说的。”
This includes efforts to get food companies to drop synthetic dyes, changes to the dietary guidelines and advocating for states to adopt rules barring soda and candy from the nation’s food stamps program.
卫生与公众服务部发言人艾米莉·希利亚德此前曾反驳肯尼迪的“让美国再次健康”食品议程“陷入停滞或被拖延”的说法。
In the podcast interview, Means lamented a lack of midterm messaging around issues central to the MAHA movement, as polling has shown the majority of Americans agree there is insufficient regulation of chemical additives in food and pesticides used to grow crops.
在与罗根的对谈中，米恩斯描绘了一幅白宫工作人员有时将肯尼迪及其支持者推动的政策边缘化的图景。他声称存在“巨大的动力来削弱肯尼迪对大选的影响”。
In a statement, Blair said that “MAHA wasn’t a top issue to the vast majority of voters in this election, even if it is a top issue to a group of voters. That’s not my opinion, that’s what voters say in the research.”Health and Human Services spokeswoman Emily Hilliardpreviously pushed back on the notion that Kennedy’s MAHA food agenda has been “stalled or slow walked.”
布莱尔表示，他不知道米恩斯“在说什么‘削弱’肯尼迪部长的影响——我们请他走遍全国与美国人交谈，他也确实这么做了。肯尼迪部长过去是，现在也是最优秀的人选之一。”民主党人和医学专家猛烈抨击肯尼迪——这位著名反疫苗组织创始人——所推行的一些政策，例如大幅削减儿童疫苗接种计划。大选后不久，参议员安吉拉·奥尔索布鲁克斯（民主党-马里兰州）在社交媒体上写道：“小肯尼迪必须辞职或被解职”，而著名的“让美国再次健康”运动领袖则认为，该党不应寻求罢免国家最高卫生官员。
In his talk with Rogan,Means paints a portrait of White House staff who, at times, sidelined Kennedy and the policies his supporters are pushing. He claimed there was “tremendous energy to diminish [Kennedy’s] impact on the election.”Blair said that he did not know “what he’s talking about ‘diminishing’ Secretary Kennedy’s impact — we asked him to travel the country and talk to Americans, and he did. Secretary Kennedy was and is one of the best.”
在罗根的播客节目中，米恩斯详细讲述了关键政策是如何制定的。他主张怀尔斯对这类决策拥有“绝对控制权”。
Democrats and medical experts have hammered some of the policies Kennedy, the founder of a prominent anti-vaccine group, have pursued, such as a sweeping reduction of the childhood vaccine schedule. Shortly after the election, Sen. Angela Alsobrooks (D-Maryland) wrote on social media that “RFK Jr. must resign or be fired,” while prominent MAHA leaders argue the party should not seek to oust the nation’s top health official.
周五，肯尼迪在社交媒体上发文表示，他“感谢苏西·怀尔斯冷静而鼓舞人心的领导与智慧”。“这是世界上最艰难的工作，她以耐心、优雅和沉着应对了一切危机，”他写道。
Throughout Rogan’s podcast, Means described his account of how key policies were crafted. He contended that Wiles has a “stranglehold” on such decisions.
“让美国再次健康”运动的活动人士对特朗普政府处理草甘膦问题的方式尤为不满。这种广泛使用的除草剂，在他们看来会导致儿童健康问题。肯尼迪曾称这种除草剂是“美国慢性病流行的可能罪魁祸首之一”，并曾作为团队成员赢得了一项针对化学制造商孟山都的2.89亿美元判决，理由是该除草剂致癌。拜耳于2018年收购了孟山都。
On Friday, Kennedy posted on social media that he was “grateful to Susie Wiles for her calm and inspiring leadership and wisdom.”“Hers was the toughest job on earth, and she handled every crisis with patience, grace, and poise,” he wrote. MAHA activists have particularly been frustrated over the Trump administration’s handling of glyphosate, a widely used weed killer they say contributes to childhood health problems. Kennedy has previously called the herbicide “one of the likely culprits in America’s chronic disease epidemic” and was part of a team that won a $289 million judgment against chemical manufacturer Monsanto, which Bayer acquired in 2018, over claims the weed killer caused cancer.
米恩斯指称，在几项有关草甘膦的主要政府政策上，肯尼迪未被咨询。在其中一起事件中，米恩斯回忆称，他被要求审查一项旨在提高草甘膦产量的行政命令，并称该指令是一场“政治灾难”。米恩斯说，包括怀尔斯在内的白宫工作人员明确表示，该问题“不予讨论”。
Means alleges that Kennedy was not consulted on several major administration policies on glyphosate. In one such instance, Means recalled being told to review an executive order to boost production of glyphosate, and says he called the directive a “political disaster.”White House staff, including Wiles, made clear the issue was “not up for discussion,” Means said.
米恩斯说，他决定离开政府，是因为白宫延迟发布超加工食品的定义和新的学校午餐餐食标准。
Means says he decided to leave the administration due to a White House delay in releasing the definition of ultra-processed foods and a new school lunch meal.
他还指责怀尔斯阻挠了一项旨在确定超加工食品中某些常见成分安全性的倡议。《华盛顿邮报》此前报道，联邦卫生部门原定于今年早些时候得出结论，认为食品公司应当提交与某些成分相关的“任何详细安全研究”。
He also accused Wiles of blocking an initiative aimed at determining the safety of certain ingredients common in ultra-processed foods. The federal health department had been poised earlier this year to conclude that food companies should produce “any detailed safety studies” related to certain ingredients, The Post previously reported.
在免疫接种问题上，米恩斯说，特朗普的顾问曾敦促肯尼迪在中期选举前避免谈论疫苗。但他表示，特朗普“想大力调查疫苗”，并解除了这一限制。
On immunizations,Means said that Trump advisers had urged Kennedy to avoid talking about vaccines ahead of the midterms. But, he said, Trump “wanted to go hard on investigating vaccines,” and removed the block.
“特朗普总统听到某个问题时，他的本能反应是对的，”米恩斯说。“而他身边的人，我认为，对待他极其恶劣。他们像对待婴儿一样谈论他。他们说这是因为‘我们是政治专家’。”
“When President Trump heard about an issue, his inclination was right,” Means said. “And the people around him, I think, treat him horribly. They talk about him like a baby. They say it’s because ‘we’re the political experts.’”
布莱尔表示，他支持“重新审视疫苗和疫苗接种计划，以及总统想要在该领域实现的任何目标”。“我只是向卡尔利等人汇报了民调显示的关于疫苗和疫苗政策的情况，即人们的观点非常分裂、极度两极化，在任何一方都远未形成明显多数，”他说。
Blair said that he supports “the revisiting of vaccines and the vaccine schedule, and whatever the president wants to achieve in that space.”“I merely reported to Calley and others what polling says about vaccines and vaccine policy, which is that people’s views are very split and very polarized, with nowhere near a clear majority on either side of any of it,” he said.
在特朗普政府应对大选后果之际，米恩斯主张未来的总统应致力于将企业资金赶出政治。与此同时，特朗普应该“与国会开战”，并与一些进步派参议员会面。
As the Trump administration grapples with election’s fallout, Means argued that a future president should work to get corporate money out of politics. In the meantime, Trump should “go to war with Congress,” as well as meet with some of the progressive senators.
“我认为总统推进事情的最佳机会是与伯尼会面，与埃尔-赛义德会面，”米恩斯说，指的是参议员伯尼·桑德斯（无党籍-佛蒙特州）和当选参议员阿卜杜勒·埃尔-赛义德（民主党-密歇根州）。
“I think the best chance the president has to get things done is meeting with Bernie, meeting with El-Sayed,” Means said, referring to Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vermont) and Sen.-elect Abdul El-Sayed (D-Michigan).