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埃隆·马斯克与科技巨头为中期选举投入数百万美元,却以失败告终How Elon Musk and Big Tech Poured Millions Into the Midterms, and Lost

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民主党在几乎每一场关键选举中横扫共和党 选民让埃隆·马斯克的4亿美元付之一炬 最大的亲人工智能超级政治行动委员会网络并未真正影响中期选举“我与特朗普100%处于战争状态”:MAGA在中期选举惨败后反抗 白宫里刀光剑影 结果揭晓:选民讨厌数据中心 选举否认者不再质疑他们惨重的失败 你可以在Bluesky上关注Leah Feiger,账号@leahfeiger,Hugo Lowell,账号@hugolowell,David Gilbert,账号@davidgilbert,以及Vittoria Elliott,账号@telliotter。

Democrats Sweep Republicans in Nearly Every Race That Matters Voters Set $400 Million of Elon Musk’s Money on Fire The Biggest Pro-AI Super PAC Network Didn’t Really Impact the Midterms‘I’m 100 Percent at War With Trump’: MAGA Revolts After Midterms Wipeout Knives Are Out in the White House The Results Are In: Voters Hate Data Centers Election Deniers Aren’t Contesting Their Massive Losses You can follow Leah Feiger on Bluesky at @leahfeiger, Hugo Lowell on Bluesky at @hugolowell, David Gilbert on Bluesky at @davidgilbert, and Vittoria Elliott on Bluesky at @telliotter.

写信给我们,地址是uncannyvalley@wired.com。如何成绩单注:这是自动生成的成绩单,可能存在错误。

Write to us at uncannyvalley@wired.com. How to Transcript Note: This is an automated transcript, which may contain errors.

Brian Barrett:欢迎收听《WIRED:诡异谷》。我是Brian Barrett,执行主编。

Brian Barrett: Welcome to WIRED's Uncanny Valley. I'm Brian Barrett, executive editor.

Zoë Schiffer:我是Zoë Schiffer,撰稿编辑。

Zoë Schiffer: I'm Zoë Schiffer, contributing editor.

Leah Feiger:本周不是,各位。抱歉,Zoë和Brian。中期选举刚刚结束,政治团队接管了信息流。欢迎收听《WIRED:诡异谷》。我是Leah Feiger,政治与科学主管。本周我们为大家带来一期特别的中期选举节目。我与三位WIRED同事同台,分别是Hugo Lowell,负责报道特朗普白宫的资深记者。Hugo Lowell:大家好。

Leah Feiger: Not this week, folks. Sorry, Zoë and Brian. The midterms have just wrapped up and the politics team is taking over the feed. Welcome to WIRED's Uncanny Valley. I am Leah Feiger, director of politics and science. This week we're bringing you a special midterms episode. I'm joined by three of my WIRED colleagues, Hugo Lowell, a senior correspondent covering the Trump White House. Hugo Lowell: Hey, everyone.

Leah Feiger:David Gilbert,专注于虚假信息和极端主义的资深记者。David Gilbert:你好。很高兴来到这里。

Leah Feiger: David Gilbert, senior reporter who focuses on disinformation and extremism. David Gilbert: Hello. Good to be here.

Leah Feiger:还有Vittoria Elliott,资深撰稿人,专注于美国政府内部的运作。

Leah Feiger: And senior writer Vittoria Elliott, who focuses on the internal machinations of the US government.

Vittoria Elliott:很高兴来到这里,Leah。

Vittoria Elliott: Good to be here, Leah.

Leah Feiger:我们将讨论这些由埃隆·马斯克和人工智能超级政治行动委员会支持的候选人最终表现如何,以及为什么这些选举遭到了美国人——不仅是对现任政府,也是对大科技公司——的否决。那么,民主党在参议院需要净增四席,在众议院需要净增三席。他们远远超过了这两个目标。大家,今晚你们最大的惊喜是什么?

Leah Feiger: We'll get into how these candidates supported by Elon Musk and AI super PACs ended up faring and why these elections were rebuked by Americans of not just the current government, but also of Big Tech. So the Democrats needed a net gain of four seats in the Senate and three in the House. They blew by both. What were your biggest shocks of the evening, everyone?

大卫·吉尔伯特:嗯,因为我住在爱尔兰,周三早上醒来时,局面已经完全改变了。即使是那些在深红州的人,比如亚利桑那州的马克·兰姆,他本是稳操胜券,但他的选举结果至今仍未揭晓。这实在是不寻常。

David Gilbert: Well, because I am based in Ireland, I woke up on Wednesday morning and the landscape had just completely changed. Even people who were in deep red states like Arizona, like Mark Lamb, who was a certainty to win, his race still hasn't been drawn. It's just exceptional.

维托里娅·埃利奥特:密西西比州的选举如此胶着,南卡罗来纳州的胜利也让我大吃一惊。我绝不会押注那个结果。太不可思议了。

Vittoria Elliott: I was floored by how tight Mississippi is and the win in South Carolina. I would not have put my money on that. Incredible.

雨果·洛威尔:是的,我同意托里的看法。南卡罗来纳州,达琳·格雷厄姆是特朗普亲自挑选并背书参选的,本该赢下那场选举。而之前的选举周期中,情况从未如此胶着。莉亚·费格:她是继承她哥哥的席位。

Hugo Lowell: Yeah, I agree with Tori. South Carolina, Darline Graham was handpicked by Trump and endorsed by him to win that race. And it was not this close in previous cycles. Leah Feiger: To inherit her brother's seat.

雨果·洛威尔:疯狂。结果她输掉了席位。另外在密西西比州,辛迪·海德-史密斯在参议院任职已久,曾被视为极其稳固的现任议员,却在深红州密西西比州落选。我是说,结果尚未正式公布,但这也是一个巨大的震撼。我认为真正让我印象深刻的是,我曾参加2024年特朗普竞选总统时的选举夜派对,在那里每个人都在谈论特朗普如何组建了这个历史性的联盟,在各种意想不到的地方取得重大进展,并拿下了所有摇摆州。

Hugo Lowell: Insane. And she ended up losing it. And then also in Mississippi, the fact that Cindy Hyde-Smith, who's been in the Senate a long time, was once considered to be a very, very safe incumbent losing in deep red Mississippi. I mean, it's not been called yet, but that was also a massive shock. And I think what really stood out to me was having been at Trump's election night party in 2024 for that presidential run and how everyone there was talking about how Trump had put together this historic coalition, was making big gains in all sorts of places where they didn't expect to and took all of the battleground states.

而周二晚上,也就是选举夜发生的事情,是对所有这些进展的彻底扭转,甚至更甚。我是说,如果你想想特朗普在摇摆州以两位数优势获胜,然后看看周二发生的事情,那些州在民主党方面回弹了10个百分点。我认为,这表明在18个月到20个月内,特朗普通过他所有的虚荣项目、所有通过DOGE的削减、他在联邦政府的所有行为,以及他带领国家陷入一场不受欢迎的战争并导致价格上涨(而价格上涨更不受欢迎)的事实,已经撕毁了共和党在2024年选举周期中建立的一切以及所有的善意。

What happened on Tuesday night, on election night was a reversal of all of those gains and then some. I mean, if you think about Trump winning double digits in battleground states and then seeing what happened on Tuesday, those states swung 10 points back in the other direction for Democrats. And it just, I think, goes to show how in 18 months and 20 months, Trump has managed to undo everything and all of the goodwill that Republicans have built up in the '24 election cycle through all of his vanity projects, all of the cuts with DOGE, all of his acts in the federal government, and really the fact that he led the country into an unpopular war that led to higher prices, which are even more unpopular.

莉亚·费格:绝对没错。我是说,周二晚上我和几位民主党人在发消息,他们告诉我,就算做梦也想不到会出现这种情况。这可不是仅仅赢下缅因州或南卡罗来纳州的问题,而是缅因州、北卡罗来纳州、俄亥俄州、德克萨斯州、爱荷华州、堪萨斯州、南卡罗来纳州、密歇根州。显然,共和党内部的互相指责已经开始了。

Leah Feiger: Absolutely. I mean, I was messaging with Democrats on Tuesday night who were telling me that they really couldn't have, in their wildest dreams, though that this was going to happen. It wasn't like just picking up Maine or just picking up South Carolina. It was Maine, North Carolina, Ohio, Texas, Iowa, Kansas, South Carolina, Michigan. And obviously for Republicans, the blame game has started.

这是一位不受欢迎的总统,领导着一场不受欢迎的战争,再加上你提到的一系列政策,这些政策对许多美国人和居民来说都切身相关。所以,选举后,特朗普把责任归咎于候选人的质量,以及他本人没有出现在选票上的事实。MAGA基本盘并不完全认同。大卫,你报道了一篇关于MAGA基本上“失控”的文章,我认为这是周二晚上和周三早上看着所有选举结果出来时,公平的说法。你看到了什么?

This was an unpopular president leading an unpopular war with a variety of, as you mentioned, policies that really hit home for a lot of Americans and residents. So Trump, after the election, blamed the quality of the candidates and the fact that he wasn't on the ballot. The MAGA base didn't totally agree. David, you reported out a story about how MAGA basically went feral, I think is the fair way to put it on Tuesday night and Wednesday morning looking at all of the results come in. What did you see?

大卫·吉尔伯特:是的,看看事情是如何发展的很有意思,因为特朗普也指责了福克斯新闻,我们不要忘了这一点,他说福克斯新闻要承担很大责任,因为他们给了很多民主党人发声平台,而这正是他们的做法。但我认为最初的反应有点被压制了,因为很多人简直无法相信。如果你看看史蒂夫·班农的节目,他们不断提及得克萨斯州的新结果,尤其是得克萨斯州,他简直无法相信自己看到的事情正在发生。

David Gilbert: Yeah, it was interesting to look at how it played out because Trump also blamed Fox News, let's not forget, because he said they had a lot to bear because they platformed a lot of Democrats because that's what they do. But I think the first reaction was kind of silenced because a lot of people just could not believe it. If you looked at what Steve Bannon show and they kept bringing up new results in Texas in particular, he just kind of couldn't believe that what he was seeing was actually happening.

所以我认为起初,他们和几乎所有人一样震惊,因为事情确实正在发生,而且程度如此之深。但渐渐地,他们开始说:“好吧,这是因为战争,特别是特朗普让我们卷入的那场战争。”像马特·沃尔什这样的人物,他已经批评这场战争有一段时间了,开始把一切摊开来说:“这就是为什么我们从2024年出现如此大逆转的原因。”

So I think initially they were just shocked like pretty much everyone else that this was actually happening to the extent that it was happening. But slowly then they began to say, "OK, well, this is because of the war and the war that Trump more particularly got us into." So figures like Matt Walsh, who has been critical of the war for quite a while now, was kind of laying it all out saying, "This is exactly why we've had such a reversal from 2024."

利亚·费格:我是说,沃尔什,这位臭名昭著的右翼播客主持人,简直直截了当地称特朗普为“一位80岁的跛脚鸭总统”,并将选举结果称为“历史性规模的政治灾难”。这比这更“官方”了都没有。对我来说,这是我第一次看到这种指责游戏被如此简洁、如此具体、如此直接地归咎于特朗普本人。

Leah Feiger: I mean, Walsh, who's an infamous right-wing podcaster, quite literally called Trump, "An 80-year-old lame duck president," and called the results, "A political catastrophe of historic proportions." It doesn't get more official than that. And this for me was the first time that I saw this blame game laid out so concisely, so specifically, and so squarely on Trump's shoulders.

大卫·吉尔伯特:是的,我认为他们很快意识到,除了特朗普,他们别无他处可看,因为反弹或反应如此强烈,以至于真的没有别处可看。

David Gilbert: Yeah, I think they realized very quickly that they couldn't look anywhere else except at Trump because the pushback or the reaction was so strong that there really wasn't anywhere else to look.

利亚·费格:是的,我想深入探讨这一点。具体来说,雨果周三下午发布了一期通讯,全是关于白宫和特朗普政府内部的指责过程,工作人员基本上一直在试图推卸责任,却又没有明确指出总统。我们来谈谈替罪羊。这次谁被当成了替罪羊?

Leah Feiger: Yeah, I want to get into that. Specifically, Hugo had a newsletter that came out on Wednesday afternoon all about the blaming process inside the White House and inside the Trump administration where staffers have been essentially trying to assign blame without exactly pinpointing the president. Let's talk scapegoats. Who's getting thrown under the bus this time?

雨果·洛威尔:是的,我仍然认为时机尚早,但人们迅速团结起来指责皮特·赫格塞斯,这一点非常快。他身为国防部长,或者说战争部长,数月来一直鼓励特朗普继续伊朗战争。他一直是继续实施动能打击、延长中东部署的大力鼓吹者,而且基本上为这场冲突辩护,毫不道歉。

Hugo Lowell: Yeah, I still think it's early, but it is very quick how people coalesced behind blaming Pete Hegseth, for one, the Secretary of Defense, or Secretary of War because of his encouragement of Trump for months and months about continuing the Iran war. He has been a big cheerleader for continuing to have kinetic strikes, for continuing to extend deployments in the Middle East, and being pretty unapologetic about championing the conflict essentially.

莉亚·费格:你报道中有一条信息,说实话,让我大吃一惊,那就是赫格塞斯向总统汇报的伊朗战争情况过于乐观、过于美好,以至于副总统JD·万斯和国务卿马尔科·鲁比奥不得不自己找人获取情报简报,因为他们非常清楚,自己没有得到关于战场上战争的准确评估。这简直难以置信。

Leah Feiger: You had one piece of reporting in there that was absolutely mind-blowing to me, honestly, that Hegseth's reports from the Iran war to the president were so rosy, so glowing that Vice President JD Vance and Marco Rubio from State, they ended up having to ask people for their own intelligence briefings because they were very aware they were not getting an accurate assessment of the war on the ground. That's pretty unbelievable.

雨果·洛威尔:是的,我是说,鲁比奥和JD·万斯一直都是情报产品的狂热消费者。在伊朗战争之前就是如此,但我们的消息人士告诉我们,获取伊朗局势不加掩饰、冷静客观的看法对这些人来说已成为头等优先事项,因为归根结底,他们有自己的政治野心,但也必须亲自向总统提供建议。因此,他们觉得需要掌握事实,以便以最佳方式引导总统。

Hugo Lowell: Yeah, I mean look, Rubio and JD Vance have both been very voracious consumers of intelligence products. That was the case even before the Iran war, but our sources tell us that interest in getting an unvarnished somber look at the situation in Iran became a top priority for those guys because at the end of the day, they have their own political ambitions, but they also have to advise the president themselves. And so they felt like they needed to arm themselves with the facts of the matter in order to guide the president in the best way.

这一切都汇聚在一起,对吧?就像伊朗战争以如此乐观的方式呈现给特朗普,让他感到更加大胆地继续这场战争。政府内部的人想:“实际上情况并非如此。”如果特朗普被误导,或者他接收到不同的描述,也许他就不会那么有兴趣继续这场冲突,尤其是在中期选举前几个月。

And this all coalesces, right? It's like the fact that the Iran war was being presented to Trump in such a rosy way meant he felt more emboldened to continue it. People inside the administration thought, "Well, this is actually not the situation." And had Trump been maybe, I want to say misled, but had he received a different characterization, maybe he would've been less interested in continuing the conflict, especially months before the midterms.

Leah Feiger:太不可思议了,真的没有别的词能形容。那么我们来谈谈支出。如果要谈支出,就不得不谈埃隆·马斯克。他在本次中期选举周期花费了超过4亿美元,主要是攻击民主党并支持共和党候选人。他几乎就是把钱烧掉了。据《连线》杂志分析,到周三早上,马斯克的美国政治行动委员会支持的候选人已经输掉了20场竞选,仅赢得1场。

Leah Feiger: It's amazing. There's really no other word for it. So let's talk about spending. If we're going to talk about spending, we have to talk about Elon Musk. He spent over $400 million in this midterm cycle, largely attacking Democrats and supporting Republican candidates. He virtually set his money on fire. According to a WIRED analysis, by Wednesday morning, candidates backed by Musk's America PAC had lost 20 races and won only 1.

仍有几场尚未揭晓结果,但换个说法,就目前掌握的信息而言,马斯克投入每一场已决出胜负的竞选的每一笔可追踪资金中,超过99美分都投入了他输掉的竞选。数据简直令人难以置信。

There are still several that haven't been called yet, but to put another way with where we're at right now with the information we have, of every traceable dollar that Musk put into a race that has now been decided, more than 99 cents went to a race that he lost. Just unbelievable figures there.

Vittoria Elliott:我是说,我觉得很不可思议的是,两年前美国政治行动委员会还是共和党政治中的一股新势力。当时大家都开始围绕美国政治行动委员会的捐赠情况行事,它吸引的不仅是马斯克的资金,还有肖恩·马奎尔等大型风险投资人的资金。正如我们在2024年报道的那样,他们的地面战并不算特别强劲,但关键在于愿意不断投入资金。

Vittoria Elliott: I mean, I think it's pretty incredible that two years ago, America PAC was this new force in Republican politics. Everyone was starting to play to the sort of America PAC donation situation, and it pulled in not just money from Musk, it pulled in money from big VCs like Shaun Maguire. And in 2024, as we reported, their ground game wasn't exactly super strong, but it was just the willingness to pump money in.

这有点像风险投资人的做法,不断投入资金,直到自己的团队获胜。看着这个策略彻底失败,真是令人感叹。不过,我认为我们看到了一些早期迹象,特别是在DOGE事件后的几个月里,马斯克本人已经成为共和党人开始与之绑定时一个非常有毒的因素。Leah Feiger:没错,绝对如此。

Similar to how VCs make things work, you pump money in until your team wins. And just to watch that strategy really crash and burn, but I think we saw some early indications that, particularly in the months post DOGE, that Elon himself became a really toxic thing for Republicans to start attaching themselves to. Leah Feiger: Oh, absolutely.

Vittoria Elliott:于是这就变成了类似“猴爪许愿”的情况,也就是说,你可以拿美国政治行动委员会的钱,但随后就会被马斯克的品牌所玷污。这两者,也许最多只能互相抵消,但看起来,马斯克品牌的毒性比他和他的候选人能花钱摆脱的还要严重。

Vittoria Elliott: And so then it became this sort of monkey's paw situation where it's like you can take the America PAC money and then you get tarred with the Musk brand. And those two things, maybe at best they cancel each other out, but it seems like actually the Musk brand is more toxic than he and his candidates could buy their way out of.

莉亚·费格:我百分之百同意你的观点。雨果,你深度参与了《连线》的追踪项目,我们建立了一个马斯克政治支出的实时追踪器。能否带我们了解一下他投入大量资金支持的几位候选人,以及他们最终的表现如何?

Leah Feiger: I 100 percent agree with you. Hugo, you were very involved in the WIRED tracking project where we built a live tracker of Musk's political spending. Can you take us through a couple of the candidates that he put all of this dough behind and how they ended up doing?

雨果·洛威尔:是的,总的来说,马斯克的美国政治行动委员会在这次中期选举周期里实际上花掉了将近5亿美元,也就是5亿美元,全是他一个人出的。我是说,如果你要概念化这种规模的支出,我认为思考的方式是,他实际上运作了一个影子版的共和党全国委员会。这就是这笔捐款的规模。而且,顺便说一句,要不是这笔钱,这些失利中的一些可能会更严重。

Hugo Lowell: Yeah, look, in total, Musk's America PAC spent about close to $500 million actually, half a billion dollars this midterm cycle, him alone. I mean, if you conceptualize that sort of spending, the way to think about it I think is he effectively ran a shadow Republican national committee. That is the scale of that contribution. And were it not for that money, by the way, some of these losses might've been even greater.

托里谈到了美国政治行动委员会资助的地面战,这在“24年”以及本轮选举中都是一个重点。显然,他最大的关注点是德克萨斯州。那是他的根据地。他在那里投入了最多的时间、最多的资金和最多的资源,但基本上一无所获。我是说,肯·帕克斯顿以如此大的差距输掉了选举,以至于在州长选举中,依附于詹姆斯·塔拉里科的裙带的是吉娜·希诺霍萨。

Tori talked about the ground game that America PAC financed, that has been a big focus both in '24 and also in this cycle. Obviously his biggest focus was Texas. That is his home base. That was where he spent the most amount of time, the most amount of money and the most amount of resources, and it basically got him nothing. I mean, Ken Paxton lost by such a wide margin that hanging onto James Talarico's coattails was Gina Hinojosa in the governor's race.

所以我认为,看待马斯克支出的方式,如果你跟共和党操盘手和特朗普圈子里的人谈,应该从这笔钱实际上为他买到了什么来思考。对他而言,这只是个零头。对埃隆来说,5亿美元不过是零花钱,想想这都令人难以置信,但事实如此。那么,他从中得到的净效果是什么?很可能就是,他现在可以在迈向2028年选举的过程中扮演造王者的角色。

So I think the way to look at Musk's spending, if you talk to Republican operatives and people in Trump world, is to think about it in terms of what is this money actually buying him? For him, it's a rounding era. Half billion dollars to Elon, it's kind of pocket change, which is kind of incredible to think about, but that is the case. And so what is the net effect he gets from this? And it is probably the fact that he can play kingmaker now running into 2028.

如果他决定支持某位特定的总统候选人,我很抱歉要这么说,我们刚刚结束了这次选举,但2028年就在眼前。如果他决定支持某位特定候选人,其他人在资金方面基本上都无法与他竞争,因为如果他在下一个周期再投入5亿甚至更多,还有谁有那样的钱可以随意挥霍?这太疯狂了。

And if he decides to back a particular presidential candidate, I'm sorry to say this, we already just finished this election, but '28 is around the corner. If he decides to back a particular candidate, no one else is really going to be able to compete with him on the money front because if he sinks another half billion, if not more, in the next cycle, who else has that kind of money to play with? It's insane.

Leah Feiger:但我认为,至少在当下,关键是钱并不重要。他买不下这些选举。人们对共和党和特朗普的授权如此愤怒,以至于这对他并没有奏效。我不确定,在迈向2028年之际,我是否真的希望埃隆·马斯克站在我身后。

Leah Feiger: But I think the takeaway, at least in this moment, is that money didn't matter. He couldn't buy these races. People were so mad at Republicans and so mad at Trump's mandate that this didn't actually work out for him. I'm not sure, going into 2028, I would necessarily want Elon Musk behind me.

Hugo Lowell:我不知道选民是否真的能看清这一点,对吧?我的意思是,选民真的会追踪哪条广告是由哪个超级政治行动委员会支付的吗?我理解钱没有买下得克萨斯州参议院选举。顺便说一句,这本就不该如此,这种你可以买下参议院选举的概念。我接受你的观点,也明白你的意思,但对我来说,不清楚这笔钱是来自参议院领导基金——即与参议院共和党领导层结盟的超级政治行动委员会——还是来自美国政治行动委员会,在某种程度上并不重要。

Hugo Lowell: I don't know that voters necessarily see that though, right? I mean, are voters really tracking which ad was paid for by which super PAC? I understand that the money didn't buy a Texas Senate race. By the way, as it shouldn't, this concept that you can just buy Senate races. And I take your point and I see what you're saying, but it is not clear to me that whether the money would've come from the Senate leadership fund, which is the super PAC aligned with the Senate Republican leadership, or whether it came from America PAC, in some ways doesn't matter.

就像涌入的现金数量,这些钱将流向何处,以及这类捐款的未来会是什么样子?而且,我确实认为这在某种程度上会延续到2028年。

It's like the volume of cash that flowed in, where is that going to be going and what does the future of those kinds of contributions look like? And I do think it kind of flows into '28.

Vittoria Elliott:我只想说,也许如果他把钱包裹在层层嵌套的政治行动委员会之下,让人难以追踪资金来源,我会同意你的看法。但任何从埃隆那里获得资金,甚至与他关联的政党的人,都会让对方能够投放攻击广告,说“埃隆支持这个人,埃隆支持这个政党”,我认为,即使资金最终通过共和党整体资金体系流转,执行一位非选举产生的亿万富翁不受欢迎的意志,仍然会是有毒的。

Vittoria Elliott: I would just argue that yeah, maybe if he wrapped the money on many, many layers of PACs that made it hard to trace where it came from, I would agree with you. But anyone who gets money that flows from Elon or even his association with the party allows for someone to run an attack ad that says, "Elon backs this guy. Elon backs this party," they're going to execute on the unpopular will of an unelected billionaire, I think is still going to be toxic even if the money eventually gets routed through the general Republican funding apparatus.

莉娅·费格:我认为,把这看作在某种程度上是对“28”的预演,是正确的看法。大致在这个脉络下,人工智能行业也在这个选举周期中亮相了。由安德里森·霍洛威茨和OpenAI总裁格雷格·布罗克曼等人支持的亲人工智能网络“引领未来”,向共和党初选和民主党初选都投入了资金。他们几乎无处不在。对我来说,以及我们团队采访的一些专家来说,这实际上表明,他们正在为“28”打基础。

Leah Feiger: I think the though that this is in some ways all a preview for '28 is the right take. Sort of in that vein is where the AI industry showed up in this election cycle as well. Leading the future, which is the pro-AI network backed by Andreessen Horowitz and OpenAI president Greg Brockman, among others. They threw in money for Republican primaries, Democratic ones. They've been sort of all over the place. And to me and to some of the experts people on our team have spoken to, that's really spelled out that they're just kind of slaying the groundwork for '28.

他们想看看不同选举的结果,以及民众在这些不同问题上的立场,我想这引出了数据中心这个话题,我本以为2026年不会让我花那么多精力在数据中心上,但事实如此。托里,我们一直把这次选举很大程度上视为数据中心公投。我们没有错。全国范围内,有40项关于人工智能数据中心项目的投票提案。选民选择限制其中39项,NBC的选民出口民调发现,近四分之一的选民表示数据中心对他们的投票至关重要。

They want to see where different, not just races land, but where the population is landing on all of these different issues, which I guess takes us to data centers, a topic that I did not think was going to consume 2026 for me, but here we are. Tori, we have been framing this election quite a lot as the data center referendum. We were not wrong. Across the country, there were 40 ballot measures about AI data center projects. Voters chose to restrict 39 of them, and an NBC exit poll found that almost a quarter of all voters said that data centers were crucial to their vote.

这简直令人难以置信。选民讨厌人工智能。选民讨厌数据中心。请跟我们谈谈你和WIRED高级科学记者莫莉·塔夫特的报道。

Absolutely mind-boggling. Voters hated AI. Voters hated data centers. Talk to us about what you and science senior reporter Molly Taft reported out for WIRED.

维托里娅·埃利奥特:是的,我想有几点。首先,我认为这在很多方面与人们对科技行业及其更广泛的右倾趋势的怨恨有关,而数据中心和人工智能大体上是这种现象的典型体现。显然,数据中心周围存在环境问题,我认为你在农村社区真正看到了这一点,这些数据中心正在那里建设,在那些传统上更倾向于共和党的社区,这变成了一项真正跨党派的团结努力,围绕着这样一个事实——莉娅·费格:老实说,我想不出还有哪个问题能如此团结人们。维托里娅·埃利奥特:我知道,这是我们都能认同的事。莉亚·费格:真的。真的。

Vittoria Elliott: Yeah, so I think a couple of things. First off, I think this sort of ties in many ways to people's resentment of the tech industry and its right word swing more generally, and data centers and AI are sort of the peak embodiment of that. And obviously there's the environmental concerns around data centers, and I think you really saw it as a galvanizing force in rural communities where these data centers are being put, where in communities that really would've more traditionally swung Republican, that it became this really bipartisan uniting effort around the fact that—Leah Feiger: I can't think of another issue, honestly, that has galvanized. Vittoria Elliott: I know, something we can all agree on. Leah Feiger: Truly. Truly.

维托里娅·埃利奥特:所以回到南卡罗来纳州,比如,达琳·格雷厄姆被称为“数据中心达琳”,因为她接受了数据中心政治行动委员会的资金。在蒙大拿州,山姆·福斯塔格是一位民主党新星、跳伞消防员,他的对手也在一个历史上倾向共和党的选区被贴上了数据中心的标签。所以我认为,我们确实正处于这样一个时刻:这些事情正落脚到通常是共和党的社区,居民们正在感受到这些对日常生活的影响,并且看到他们的共和党代表——莉亚·费格:甚至只是对日常生活影响的威胁。

Vittoria Elliott: So to go back to South Carolina, for instance, Darline Graham got dubbed Data Center Darline because she was taking money from data center PACs. In Montana with Sam Forstag, who Democratic up and comer, fire jumper, his opponent also tarred and feathered with the data center label in a historically Republican district. So I think we are really seeing this moment where these things are touching down in communities that normally would be Republican, and they're seeing these impacts on their daily lives and having Republican representatives- Leah Feiger: Or even just the threat of the impact on their daily lives.

有些人竞选时说:“你的社区可能会出现一个数据中心。别担心,我会阻止它发生。”比如新罕布什尔州的克里斯·帕帕斯。

People were running on, "There could be a data center in your community. Don't worry, I'll stop it from happening." That was Chris Pappas in New Hampshire, for example.

维托里娅·埃利奥特:完全正确。尤其是在佐治亚州和德克萨斯州这样的地方,很多这些项目已经运行或计划运行,民众强烈地、强烈地告诉共和党立法者别插手。他们不感兴趣。告诉人们:“我们要把这个东西放在你们社区。它会占用你们的水。它会很吵。它会很烦人。它会很昂贵。它会在负担能力危机中推高你们的电费。”

Vittoria Elliott: Totally. And especially in places like Georgia and Texas where a lot of these things are already up and running or are planned, resounding, resounding population telling Republican lawmakers to step off with that. They're not interested. Telling people, "We're going to put this thing in your community. It's going to take up your water. It's going to be loud. It's going to be annoying. It's going to be expensive. It's going to drive up your electricity bills in the middle of an affordability crisis."

然后对他们说:“而这一切的回报是,它会在就业危机中夺走你们的工作,成千上万的人正苦苦寻找工作。”我真的不认为这是一个好的卖点。有些共和党人竞选时说他们想监管人工智能行业,想抵制数据中心,但对民主党来说,这真的变成了全党围绕这一问题的运动。我认为这在选举中得到了回报。

And then saying to them, "And reward for all of that is it's going to take your job in the middle of a jobs crisis where tons and tons of people are struggling to find work." I just don't think that's a good selling point. And there were individual Republicans who ran saying that they wanted to regulate the AI industry, that they wanted to push back on data centers, but for the Democrats, it really became sort of a whole of party movement around this. And I think that really was rewarded at the ballot box.

利亚·费格:是啊。我是说,有些人把它带进了胜选演说。乔恩·奥索夫在佐治亚州参议院选举中获胜后,在胜选演说中专门点名硅谷巨头,称他们建造掩体,并警告他们的AI可能导致人类灭绝。目睹这一切真是令人难以置信。这是一种号召,但我不知道两年后它是否还会是一种号召。让我们谈谈那些非常、非常确信,无论本轮选举发生什么,一切都会是舞弊的人。

Leah Feiger: Yeah. I mean, there were people who brought it into their victory speeches. Jon Ossoff, when he won his Senate race in Georgia, used his victory speech to specifically call out Silicon Valley titans who build bunkers and warned that their AI could cause human extinction. It was pretty incredible to witness. This is a rallying cry, but I wonder if it's going to be still a rallying cry in two years from now. Let's talk about the people who were very, very convinced that no matter what happened this election cycle, it was all going to be fraud.

大卫,你周三报道了一篇关于这些选举否认论者的文章,他们通常是最先说出有问题、结果不准确、必须重新计票、必须展开调查的人,但这次却一言不发。选举否认论者接受了选举结果。跟我们谈谈这个。

David, you reported out a story on Wednesday about how all of these election deniers who are usually the very, very first to say that something was wrong, that results were inaccurate, there has to be a recount, there has to be investigations, had nothing to say. Election deniers accepted the results. Talk to us about that.

大卫·吉尔伯特:正如我之前所说,MAGA人群的第一反应是沉默,然后开始互相指责。但对于选举否认论者来说,沉默一直持续。选票上有数百名选举否认论者,他们都支持特朗普关于2020年选举被窃取的说法。其中许多选举结果尚未揭晓。有些人赢了,但在他们最关键的选举中,许多人输了。比如安迪·比格斯,他竞选亚利桑那州州长;迈克·罗杰斯,他竞选密歇根州参议院席位,两人都曾在2020年选举后支持特朗普推翻选举的呼吁。

David Gilbert: Yeah. As I was saying earlier, the MAGA crowd, their first reaction was silence and then they started the recriminations. But for election deniers, the silence has continued. There was hundreds of election deniers on the ballots, people who had backed Trump's claims that 2020 was a stolen election. Lots of those races still haven't been called. Some of them have won, but lots of them in their most consequential races have lost. People like Andy Biggs who was running for governor in Arizona or Mike Rogers who was running for Senate seat in Michigan, they both had backed Trump's calls in the wake of 2020 to overturn elections.

吉姆·马尚特竞选内华达州州务卿,他是老牌选举否认论者之一,却被现任州务卿思科·阿吉拉尔轻松击败。但令人难以置信的是,当他们发表败选演说时,完全没有提到选举、安全、选票操纵或选举舞弊,也没提到非公民。利亚·费格:全是你们最喜欢的那些流行词。

Jim Marchant was running for Secretary of State in Nevada who was kind of one of the OG election deniers, and he got beaten easily by Cisco Aguilar, who's the incumbent there. But it was just incredible to see when they were making their concession speeches that they didn't mention elections or security or vote rigging or election fraud whatsoever. They didn't mention noncitizens. Leah Feiger: All of your favorite buzzwords.

大卫·吉尔伯特:是啊,他们一个都没提,因为在大多数情况下,失败的差距都大得根本没必要提。同样,那些支持这场运动的团体,比如克莱塔·米切尔的选举诚信网络、真正投票组织,以及像帕特里克·伯恩这样为这场运动提供大量资金的人,他们都保持了沉默,这让我不禁想知道,这是否意味着这场运动开始走向终结?

David Gilbert: Yeah, they mentioned none of them because in most of the cases, the margins of defeat were so great that it just made no sense. But equally, the groups who are kind of backing this movement, the groups like Cleta Mitchell's Election Integrity Network, True to Vote, people like Patrick Byrne, who's funded much of this, they've just been silent, which makes me wonder, is this kind of the beginning of the end of that movement?

我们是否已经看到了更好的迹象,即他们现在意识到,“不,这些选举是安全的,只是人们真的不喜欢特朗普所做的事以及他的政策?”莉亚·费格:你在中期选举前多次提到,全国各地的司法部长选举和州务卿选举中,有许多选举否认论者候选人参选。这两个职位通常不太受关注,但非常重要,因为它们关系到这些州选举的运行方式,这意味着如果这些候选人赢得选举,即将到来的2028年下一次大选可能会受到很大影响。所以这是一个奇怪的停滞点。对你来说,大卫,这是否感觉像是一个时代的结束?

Have we seen it better out that they've just realized now that, "No, these elections are secure, it's just people really don't like what Trump is doing and the policies that he has?" Leah Feiger: Something that you had flagged a number of times in the lead up to the midterms was there were a number of election denier candidates running for attorney general races in states across the country and Secretary of State races. And those two positions don't tend to get a lot of attention, but they're really important because they have to do with how elections are run in those particular states, which would mean that 2028, the next large election coming up, could have been very well impacted had these candidates won their races. So there is this weird stopping point. Does it feel like the end of an era for you, David?

大卫·吉尔伯特:嗯,看,我想我们可能谈得太早了,因为我认为在2024年,我们曾以为事情已经结束,因为特朗普以压倒性优势获胜,他们没有什么可抱怨的,特朗普本人也没有提起此事。但我们看到,他们很快又卷土重来,而且对这些团体中的许多人来说,仍有大量金钱可赚,因为对其中许多人而言,这是一场骗局。

David Gilbert: Well look, I think we probably are talking about it too early because I think in 2024 we thought that maybe it was over because Trump had won so convincingly, so there was nothing for them to complain about and Trump himself didn't bring it up. But we saw that they came back very quickly again, and there was still a lot of money to be made for a lot of these groups because for a lot of people involved in this, it is a grift.

他们在赚钱,他们在全国各地旅行,与人交谈并为此获得报酬。我确实认为,根据我们看到的最初反应,许多参与其中的人都感到疲惫了。我在关注的一些电报频道中读到的一些评论显示,人们对此已经厌倦透顶,似乎不再想参与其中。所以,说这是结束还为时过早,但有可能,这场运动六年来积聚的大量能量将会消散。

They were making money, they were traveling across the country talking to people and getting paid for it. I do think based on the initial response that we've seen that lots of the people who were involved in this are tired. Some of the comments I was reading in some of the Telegram channels that I follow are people are just so tired of this and they seem like they no longer want to take part in it. So it's too early to say that this is the end, but it is possible that a lot of the energy that has been in this movement for six years now will dissipate.

雨果·洛威尔:大卫,我只是好奇,你认为其中有多大程度上也是“追随领袖”,当特朗普在选举夜相当早的时候就出来表示“我将接受选举结果”时,其余的人想:“好吧,如果我们没有我们的冠军了,我们也将停止行动。”大卫·吉尔伯特:是的,我认为这与之有很大关系。他没有那么积极地深入其中的琐碎细节。他一直在声称选举被操纵,但我认为这场运动在某种程度上是自我维持的,尤其是在2025年特朗普获胜之后。

Hugo Lowell: I'm just curious, David, to what extent do you think a lot of this is also follow the leader and the moment Trump came out pretty early on in election night and was like, "I'm going to accept the results." The rest of them thought, "OK, well, if we're not going to have our champion, we're going to stand down too." David Gilbert: Yeah, I think that's a huge amount to do with it. He hasn't been as active in terms of getting involved in the nitty-gritty of this. He's been making claims that elections are rigged, but I think the movement was kind of self-sustaining, especially in 2025 after Trump had won.

所以即使他不为他们宣传,他们在那段时期也能够自我维持。但我确实认为,他如此迅速地接受了这些中期选举的失败,并且没有反击,这对他们来说将是一个大问题,他们很难再次激励自己。

So they were able to sustain themselves in that period even when he wasn't promoting them. I do think the fact though that he has so quickly accepted defeats in these midterms and hasn't pushed back, I do think that's going to be a big issue for them and will be difficult for them to kind of get themselves motivated once again.

Leah Feiger:各位,我想聊聊预测。中期选举已经结束,已成过去。明年1月,国会山将迎来一批全新的政客,这意味着现在是时候谈论总统大选了。已经有不少名字在流传,比如乔恩·奥索夫、AOC、加文·纽森、JD·万斯、马尔科·鲁比奥。我很想知道你们怎么看。你们有什么预测?会发生什么?未来几个月我们该关注什么?

Leah Feiger: You guys, I want to talk predictions. Midterms, they're over. They're behind us. In January, we're going to have a whole new set of politicians on Capitol Hill, which means it is time to talk about the presidentials. There's a bunch of names that are already floating around, Jon Ossoff, AOC, Gavin Newsom, JD Vance, Marco Rubio. I'm curious, what you think. What are your predictions here? What's going to happen? What should we be looking out for in the next few months?

Vittoria Elliott:我的意思是,我认为昨晚很多民主党人立刻说的一件大事就是传唤、传唤、传唤,他们最喜欢的词。但我认为,不幸的是,这会遇到真正的阻力,因为作为国会,你可以传唤人,可以试图让他们作证,但最终所有联邦机构都隶属于行政部门。在特朗普政府下,它们现在的政治领导层对国会持相当敌对的态度。

Vittoria Elliott: I mean, I think one of the big things that we saw a lot of Democrats saying immediately last night was subpoena, subpoena, subpoenas, favorite word. And I think unfortunately that's going to run up against some real friction because as Congress, you can subpoena people, you can try and get them to testify, but ultimately all those federal agencies are under the executive branch. They have political leadership now under the Trump administration that is pretty hostile to Congress.

如果你想强制执行传票,你需要司法部来为你做这件事。我看不到布兰奇司法部长对此非常积极。所以我认为,尽管很多民主党人进来就说“我们准备好进行问责”,而且我确实认为他们想这么做,但他们能够这么做的实际机制将相当有限,而这可能是他们现在就得向选民解释清楚的事情。Leah Feiger:没错。雨果,你怎么看?

And if you want to enforce that subpoena, you are going to need the DOJ to do that for you. And I can't see AG [Todd] Blanche super excited to assist in that. So I think as much as a lot of these Democrats are coming in saying, "We're ready to do accountability," and I do think they want to, I think the actual mechanisms through which they're going to be able to do that are going to be pretty narrowed, and that's something that they're probably going to have to get ahead of explaining to their constituents right now. Leah Feiger: Absolutely. Hugo, how about you?

雨果·洛威尔:是的,就民主党的总统问题而言,我认为这实际上是一个非常开放的局面,需要看新的动态和新的国会如何发展。确实有一批新当选的民主党人将非常、非常积极地介入。同时,还有像奥索夫这样的人,他们将乘着民主党内部大量的善意和势头前进。我认为更有趣的是共和党,因为这真的打乱了很多人的时间表,两个不断被提及的领跑者,显然是副总统JD·万斯,以及在一定程度上是鲁比奥。

Hugo Lowell: Yeah, just on the presidential question to Democrats, I think it's actually quite a wide open field and you'll have to see how the new dynamics and the new Congress play out. You do have these freshmen Democrats who are going to come in very, very aggressive. And then you also have people like Ossoff who are going to be riding on a wave of a lot of goodwill and a lot of momentum inside the Democratic Party. I think what's more interesting is Republicans because this really screws up a lot of timelines for people, two front-runners that keep getting mentioned, obviously JD Vance as the vice president, and then Rubio to a lesser extent.

关于JD,特朗普阵营内部曾有很多想法,认为如果万斯表现尚可,可以在中期选举后不久宣布参选。他的捐助者或多或少已经就位,但在我看来,这现在实际上不得不暂停。任何共和党候选人都不可能在中期选举的臭味还沾在身上时很快宣布参选。这根本不可能。这对共和党来说是一个糟糕透顶的政治环境。而且,如果特朗普决定与国会山的民主党公开对抗,如果他决定对伊朗采取更强硬的措施,情况可能会变得更糟,而这反过来可能会更伤害共和党。

So on JD, there was a lot of thinking inside Trump world that JD, if it was an OK night, could announce pretty soon after the midterms. He had his donors more or less lined up, but it strikes me that that is now actually going to have to be paused. There is no way a Republican candidate can announce anytime soon with the stench of these midterms coming off on their coattails. It's just not possible. It's just a terrible, terrible political environment for Republicans. And it may only get worse if Trump decides to be an open warfare with Democrats on the Hill, and if he decides to go harder against Iran, that actually conversely might hurt Republicans more.

所以我认为,JD·万斯现在面临着一个非常微妙且艰难的决定,即何时宣布参选,或者是否宣布。至于像马尔科·鲁比奥这样的人,我一直认为,这只是我与鲁比奥身边的人交谈的看法,他对本轮选举并不特别热衷。他把JD视为继承人。特朗普阵营内部有很多动作,以确保万斯获得提名。而现在,他又面临着艰难的决定。如果他决定参选,是等万斯宣布然后可能惨败?还是等着看是否与万斯同时宣布?

And so I think JD Vance now has a very nuanced and difficult decision as to when he's going to announce, if ever. And as for someone like Marco Rubio, I have always been of the belief, and this is just me talking to people in Rubio's orbit, that he was not particularly enthralled about running this cycle. He saw JD as the heir apparent. There were a lot of movements inside Trump law to make sure that JD got it. And now again, he has a difficult decision. If he decides to run, does he wait for JD to announce and then potentially flame out? Or does he wait and see if he just announce at the same time as JD?

或者他决定JD已经完蛋,现在是他宣布的时候了,这就是他的时刻,他应该立刻离开?我的意思是,这些问题实际上都无法回答。我的猜测是,实际上每个人都退后一步,评估一下,看看未来六个月或十二个月会如何发展,然后再行动。Leah Feiger:David,你呢?你怎么看?

Or does he decide actually JD's cooked and now is the time for him to announce, this is the moment for him and he should go right now? I mean, these are all questions that are really unanswerable. And my guess is actually everyone takes a step back, takes stock, see how the next maybe six, 12 months play out before they get going. Leah Feiger: David, how about you? What do you think?

David Gilbert:我们肯定要排除特朗普连任第三届的可能性吗?这已经不在考虑范围内了吗?因为Steve Bannon还在谈论这个。他还在研究可能性。

David Gilbert: Are we definitely ruling out a third term for Donald Trump? Is that off the table? Because Steve Bannon's still talking about it. He's still working on possibilities.

Leah Feiger:我喜欢你还沉浸在互联网的这个领域。显然我们四个人,各有不同的领域。

Leah Feiger: I love that this is the area of the internet that you're still steeped in. Obviously the four of us, different areas.

David Gilbert:这对我来说很有趣,因为显然,特朗普的支持基础已经分裂了一段时间,中期选举后我们看到分歧更加明显了。但我很想知道Hugo,特朗普的背书现在有多重要,或者说现在还重要吗?因为很长一段时间,特朗普被视为“造王者”,他背书的人就会获得提名。中期选举后,这种影响力是否已经减弱了?

David Gilbert: It's interesting to me because obviously Trump, there's been a split in his base for quite a while now and we're seeing diverge even more after the midterms. But I'd love to know from Hugo actually, how important now, or is it important now, is Trump's endorsement? Because obviously for a long time, Trump was seen as the kingmaker and whoever he endorsed would be the person who would get the nomination. Has that weakened now because of the midterms?

雨果·洛威尔:我认为,对国会候选人来说,这种影响已经减弱。如果你是一名参议员,如果你是国会议员,两年后就要面临选举,我认为白宫官员的威胁,总统的威胁,不会左右你。顺便说一句,我们已经开始看到这种情况发生。看到像劳伦·博伯特和托马斯·马西这样的人说:“你知道的?YOLO,这将是我在国会的最后一届任期。我将投票释放爱泼斯坦档案。”

Hugo Lowell: I think for congressional candidates, it's weakened. If you're a senator, if you're a member of Congress who your election coming up in two years time, I think the threat from White House officials, a threat from the president is not going to sway you. And by the way, we are already seeing this start to happen. Seeing people like Lauren Boebert and Thomas Massie be like, "You know what? YOLO, this is going to be my last stint in Congress. I'm going to vote to release the Epstein files."

特朗普把劳伦·博伯特拉进情势室,也无法改变她的想法。不过,我认为对于总统选举来说,情况又更加复杂,因为如果你听到像JD这样的人,如果你是像鲁比奥这样的人,你希望特朗普的基本盘为你投票吗?是的。你能完全抛弃他们吗?我认为这不容易。你仍然需要组建一个联盟。你仍然得把这个由超级MAGA选民组成的联盟凑起来,这些选民仍然喜欢特朗普,仍然会投票给他。

And there was nothing Trump could do sticking Lauren Boebert in a situation room that could change her mind. I think though for the presidential, things are, again, more complicated because if you heard someone like JD, if you're someone like Rubio, do you want Trump's base to turn out for you? Yes. Can you disown them completely? I don't think it's that easy. You still need to pick up a coalition. You still have to put together this coalition of super MAGA voters who still like Trump and who will still vote for him.

你不能只把这部分选民群体一笔勾销。你仍然得带着这些选民。如果你得不到特朗普的背书,或者特朗普背书给了别人,那么你绝对得不到这些选民。

You can't just write off that section of the voting populace. You still have to bring those voters with you. And if you don't get Trump's endorsement or Trump endorses someone else, then you're absolutely not going to get those voters.

大卫·吉尔伯特:这是一个非常棘手的平衡,你既要能够摆脱特朗普带来的负面因素,又要像你说的,把所有那些人拉进来,不管他做什么,他们都会动用数千万的选票投票,这很明显。

David Gilbert: It's a very tricky needle to tread that you have to be able to move away from the negative aspect of what Trump brings, but also bring in all those people, as you say, who will no matter what he does, will turn out from tens of millions of numbers, obviously.

雨果·洛威尔:但我认为值得注意的是,这显然是一个非常流动的投票联盟,特朗普在2024年能够赢得他们,但在这个周期他失去了他们,没有什么迹象表明,18个月后,谁知道新闻周期会是什么样子,我们身处何处,他们就不能再次被赢得。我认为共和党人在展望2028年周期和初选季时,就是这么想的。

Hugo Lowell: But I think what is notable though is this is clearly a voting coalition that is very fluid, and Trump could capture them in '24. He lost them this cycle, but there's nothing to suggest in 18 months time, who knows what the news cycle is like and where we are at, that they cannot be won over again. I think that's how Republicans are thinking when they kind of look forward to the '28 cycle and the primary season.

Leah Feiger:说我对“28年”非常兴奋,是不是不太好?各位,这将会非常有趣。

Leah Feiger: Is it bad to say that I'm really excited for '28? Guys, this is going to be so fun.

Hugo Lowell:嗯,我将退休了。作为一名特朗普记者,这条路走得很长了。

Hugo Lowell: Well, I'll be retiring. It's been a long road for this Trump reporter.

Leah Feiger:Hugo、David、Tori,非常感谢你们今天加入我们。这次对话很棒。Hugo Lowell:感谢邀请我来。Vittoria Elliott:谢谢。

Leah Feiger: Hugo, David, Tori, thank you so much for joining us today. This was great. Hugo Lowell: Thanks to be here. Vittoria Elliott: Thank you.

Leah Feiger:今天的节目就到这里。我们会在节目备注中链接到我们讨论过的所有报道。本期节目由Adriana Tapia制作,由Pran Bandi混音,他同时也是我们纽约录音室的工程师。本期节目由Matt Giles和Daniel Roman进行事实核查。Kate Osborn是我们的执行制片人,Katie Drummond是《连线》杂志的全球编辑总监。

Leah Feiger: That's our show for today. We'll link to all the stories we spoke about in the show notes. Adriana Tapia produced this episode. It was mixed by Pran Bandi, who's also our New York studio engineer. It was fact checked by Matt Giles and Daniel Roman. Kate Osborn is our executive producer, and Katie Drummond is WIRED's global editorial director.

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